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DO CAN JUST SIT THERE AND THEN I GUESS HERE, DISCUSSION, DISCUSS.
[Administrative Services Committee on April 18, 2023.]
THAT SHOULD ALLOW EVERYBODY TO CONTROL THEIR OWN MICS.BUT YOU'RE NOT, LET'S SEE HERE.
SHOULD I TRY TOUCHING THE MIC IS OFF BUTTON.
ALL RIGHT, WELL, LET ME GET THIS, UH, TURN MY PHONE MEETING.
IT IS 2:06 PM ON APRIL 18TH, AND THIS IS THE CITY GARLAND, TEXAS ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES COMMITTEE MEETING CHAIRMAN ROBERT SMITH.
WITH ME, I HAVE MAYOR PRO TEM DEBORAH MORRIS, AND COUNCIL MEMBER DILLON HEDRICK.
UH, ITEM NUMBER ONE IS APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES, UH, APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES FROM THE FEBRUARY 21ST 23 MEETING.
UH, DO I HAVE A MOTION, MR. CHAIR? I MOVE THAT WE APPROVE THEM.
WE HAVE A MOTION TO APPROVE BY THE MAYOR PRO TEM AND A SECOND BY COUNCIL MEMBER HEDRICK.
UH, MOVING INTO ITEM TWO, A PUBLIC COMMENT.
I SEE NO MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC WITH US TODAY, BUT IF, UH, SOMEBODY DOES SHOW UP TO SPEAK, WE'LL GO AHEAD AND, UH, MAKE TIME FOR THEM TO, TO GET IN HERE ON THE MIC.
UH, ITEM TWO B IS DISCUSS A POLICY ON ALTERNATIVE FUELED VEHICLES, UH, MEMBERS.
THE, THE GENESIS OF THIS WAS, I BELIEVE COUNCIL MEMBER BIN, UH, IN HIS TIME AT THE RTC, UH, WAS LOOKING FOR CREATIVE WAYS OF FUNDING OUR FLEET SERVICES.
UH, WE HAD DISCUSSED THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF UPS AND DOWNS AND PROS AND CONS, UH, WITH ALTERNATIVE FIELD VEHICLES AND, UH, CERTAIN USES THAT ARE APPROPRIATE AND CERTAIN USES THAT ARE NOT.
AND, UH, WE HAD BEEN ASKED TO, UH, ISSUE SOME SORT OF POLICY STATEMENT, WHETHER IT BE SOMETHING GENERIC IN THE COUNCIL POLICY OR SOMETHING MORE DETAILED.
UH, WE COULD, UH, BUT THAT'S WHERE WE'RE AT TODAY.
SO IF YOU'LL, UH, GIVE US YOUR, YOUR, UH, NAME JUST FOR THE RECORDING.
UH, GAR SAN DIRECTOR OF FLEET SERVICES.
ALL RIGHT, SIR, IT'S ALL YOURS.
UM, SO THIS IS MY FIRST TIME WE'RE EASY.
UH, BASICALLY WHAT I PRINTED OUT FOR YOU IS A AVERAGE LIFETIME OPERATIONAL COST OF A ICE UNIT VERSUS ITS COMPARABLE, EITHER PROPANE, A HYBRID, OR ELECTRIC.
AND OBVIOUSLY THERE'S NOT ANYTHING TO COMPARE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE TO OTHER THAN ITSELF.
AN ICE STANDING FOR INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE.
OH, SO THE FIRST CATEGORY WOULD BE A, ON THE LEFT IS A ICE TRUCKING VAN.
ON THE RIGHT IS A PROPANE TRUCKING VAN.
UM, YOU SEE THE OPERATIONAL COST IS, UH, SUBSTANTIALLY A LOT MORE, BUT IF YOU LOOK ON THE PAGE TWO OF FOUR AT THE AVERAGE MILES THAT THEY'RE DRIVEN IN THE TOP COLUMN, YOU SEE THAT THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION VEHICLE IS DRIVEN ABOUT TWICE AS MUCH AS A PROPANE VEHICLE.
NOW, THE REASON FOR THAT, I BELIEVE, IS PROBABLY THE FUEL MILEAGE IS A LITTLE BIT OFF, AND IT'S PROBABLY A LITTLE MORE INCONVENIENT TO HAVE TO COME TO ONE LOCATION TO FILL IT BACK UP.
SO IT DOESN'T GIVE THEM A WHOLE LOT OF OPTIONS.
AND I'M SURE IF THERE'S A INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE THAT RUNS OFF OF GASOLINE AVAILABLE, THEY WOULD RATHER DRIVE THAT.
IF YOU MOVE OVER TO THE HYBRIDS, WE HAVE THREE DIFFERENT COLUMNS.
WE HAVE THE FIRST COLUMN IS THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ESCAPE FUSION.
THE SECOND IS THE HYBRID ESCAPE INFUSION, AND THE THIRD IS A VAULT, WHICH IS A ELECTRIC OVER GAS.
SO BASICALLY YOU PLUG IT IN, YOU CHARGE IT, YOU GET 60 MILES OUT OF A BATTERY CHARGE.
ONCE THAT RUNS OUT, IT FLIPS OVER TO GASOLINE AND IT RUNS ON GASOLINE.
WELL RUN INSIDE THE CITY LIMITS.
THEY'RE GONNA RUN ON ELECTRIC MOST OF THE TIME.
SO YOU SEE THERE'S NOT A WHOLE LOT OF DOLLAR DIFFERENCE IN THE OVERALL OPERATIONAL COST OF THE THREE HYBRIDS.
NOW, IF YOU GO DOWN TO ELECTRIC, WHICH WE ONLY HAVE THREE OF, UNFORTUNATELY, THOSE ARE RELATIVELY INEXPENSIVE.
THERE'S NOT A WHOLE LOT OF MAINTENANCE INVOLVED IN 'EM OTHER THAN TIRES, BRAKES, AND WEAR AND TEAR ITEMS. WHEN THEY DO, IF YOU GO DOWN ONE, UH, BOX IS THE AVERAGE LIFETIME MILES PER GALLON.
THE SAME UNITS ON THE PROPANE.
YOU SEE THE ICE ENGINE GETS A LITTLE BETTER FUEL MILEAGE THAN THE PROPANE.
IF YOU MOVE OVER TO THE HYBRIDS, YOU SEE A INTERNAL COMBUSTION GETS ABOUT 27 MILES PER GALLON ON AVERAGE BETWEEN THE SUV AND THE SEDAN.
THE HYBRID SUV AND SEDANS AROUND 37 AVERAGE.
AND OF COURSE, THE CHEVROLET VOLTS ABOUT 300 MILES PER GALLON.
SO THERE'S A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN THOSE THREE, AND THERE'S NO COMPARISON ON ELECTRIC.
THEY DON'T BURN ANY TYPE OF FOSSIL FUELS.
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NEXT PAGE, YOU CAN SEE THE AVERAGE MILES DRIVEN PER UNIT.OBVIOUSLY THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION, THE VAN AND TRUCK HAS DRIVEN A LOT MORE.
THEY'RE ABOUT 90,000 MILES ON AVERAGE.
THE PROPANE ARE ABOUT 46,000 MILES.
ON THE HYBRIDS, THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ARE DRIVEN A LITTLE LESS THAN THE HYBRID SUVS AND SEDANS, BUT WE DID HAVE MORE OF THE HYBRID SEDANS AND SUVS THAN WE DID ANYTHING ELSE.
IN 2007 TO 2012, UH, THE VOLTS, WE ONLY HAD ABOUT FIVE OF THOSE.
SOME OF THOSE ARE STILL AROUND, BUT THEY WERE ABOUT 43,000 MILES ON AVERAGE.
THEN THE ELECTRIC VEHICLES, THEY JUST DON'T GET DRIVEN.
I MEAN, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THEY JUST KIND OF PARK.
THEY SIT AT IT MOST OF THE TIME.
UM, A REPLACEMENT COST COMPARISON.
IN TODAY'S MARKET, A CHEVY BOLT IS ABOUT THE ONLY ELECTRIC CAR WE CAN GET UNLESS WE GO TO A NISSAN LEAF, AND THEY'RE GONNA BE BETWEEN 30 AND $35,000, DEPENDING ON WHAT OPTIONS WE GET.
AND IF WE MOVE DOWN TO THE CHEVROLET EQUINOX, A HYBRID IS ABOUT $35,000, WHEREAS A GAS ENGINE'S ABOUT 24 5.
UH, FORD ESCAPE HYBRID IS ABOUT $38,000.
WE'RE A INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE'S ABOUT 24,500.
AND ON THE CAMRYS, WHICH WE'VE STARTED USING NOW FOR PD AND THE DETECTIVES, THAT'S 37,500 FOR A HYBRID AND ABOUT 27,400 FOR A INTERNAL COMBUSTION.
UM, WE DO HAVE PLENTY OF CHARGING STATIONS WITHIN THE CITY TO SUPPORT ADDING SOME ELECTRIC OR EVEN SOME PLUG-IN HIGHS TO THE FLEET.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE CHARGING STATION LOCATIONS, THERE'S A FAIR AMOUNT OF THEM SCATTERED ABOUT ALL OVER THE CITY.
MOST OF 'EM ARE DUAL CHARGERS.
MOST OF 'EM ARE FAST CHARGERS.
AND THE SOURCE OF DATA, WHICH WE GATHERED, ALL THIS INFORMATION IS PROVIDED BELOW, WHICH IS AN IN-SERVICE DAY TO MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR COSTS, HOW MUCH QUANTITY OF FUEL THEY'VE USED, THE COST OF THE FUEL, AND THEN THE MILES PER GALLON OPERATIONAL COST.
SO I I JUST A COUPLE THOUGHTS THAT THAT IMMEDIATELY POPPED INTO MIND.
I, I NOTICED THAT WE'VE GOT A LOT OF, WE DID A LOT OF ALTERNATE FUELED VEHICLE PURCHASES BETWEEN 2011 AND 2013.
DON'T REALLY SEE MUCH AFTER THAT.
DO YOU REMEMBER WHY THAT'S THE CASE? WE GOT A LOT OF THAT STUFF ON GRANTS.
AND THERE WAS A HUGE GREEN INITIATIVE BACK IN THE 20 10, 20 11.
AARON, IF YOU, I DON'T KNOW, I'M NOT SURE, I'M NOT CERTAIN HOW LONG YOU'VE BEEN HERE, BUT WE WRAPPED A LOT OF THE VOLTS AND A LOT OF THE FUSIONS JUST FOR THE GOING GREEN INITIATIVE THAT WE HAD THAT WAS BEING PUSHED REALLY HARD BACK THEN.
UM, AT THE TIME, A LOT OF THESE CARS COULD BE HAD FOR NEXT TO NOTHING.
THE, I THINK THE DEAL WAS WE HAD TO KEEP THEM 10 YEARS, WHICH MOST OF THOSE HAVE ALREADY SATISFIED THAT LIFE CYCLE.
AND AS YOU CAN TELL BY THE REPLACEMENT COST, NOW IT'S, THEY'VE GONE UP SUBSTANTIALLY IN PRICE.
IT'S ABOUT $10,000 MORE PER UNIT TO BUY ONE.
SO IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BUYING EIGHT TOYOTA CAMRYS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A $80,000 PRICE DIFFERENCE IN BUYING AN INTERNAL COMBUSTION VERSUS A HYBRID.
UM, I DO KNOW WITH THE MARKET THE WAY IT IS TODAY, THAT IT IS NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO GET ANY TYPE OF VEHICLE, LET ALONE A HYBRID.
UM, THE ELECTRICS AND HYBRIDS ARE ON PROBABLY A 24 MONTH WAIT FOR US.
AS A MUNICIPALITY, BECAUSE THEY BUILD A CIVILIAN VEHICLE FIRST, AND THEN THEY BUILD THE MUNICIPALITY AFTER THAT.
AND NOW THEY HAVE GONE TO A ALLOTMENT OF VEHICLES.
SO FORD HAS GONE FROM ALLOWING US TO BUY AS MANY PICKUPS AS WE WANT TO.
WE WERE ALLOTTED FIVE PICKUPS THIS YEAR INSTEAD OF THE 17 SHORTAGE.
IT'S A SHORTAGE, AND IT'S A MATTER THAT THEY CAN SELL THE GENERAL PUBLIC A, A VEHICLE, OR THEY CAN SELL A LARGER CORPORATION, A VEHICLE AT A LARGER COST.
UM, RUMOR MILL HAS IT IS THAT FORD IS FIXED AND DUE AWAY WITH OUR GOVERNMENT DISCOUNT FOR EVERY MUNICIPALITY.
AND THE PRICES WILL BE GOING UP, EVERYBODY.
UM, WELL, LET ME, LET ME GO AND THROW A COUPLE THINGS OUT THAT I'VE BEEN HEARING FROM, FROM VARIOUS FOLKS.
THE FIRST ONE IS, UM, YOU KNOW, THERE, THERE WAS A QUESTION, SHOULD WE, SHOULD WE FORCE MORE ADOPTION
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OF, OF ELECTRIC AND HYBRIDS? AND, AND FOR ME IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF, OF COST.UH, WHAT MAKES THE MOST SENSE? RIGHT.
SO I DON'T WANNA FORCE OUR STAFF IN ANYTHING, ESPECIALLY WITH THE MARKET THAT'S UNCERTAIN.
I DEFINITELY DON'T WANNA SEE, UH, A LOT OF, UM, ELECTRIC VEHICLES USED IN FIRST RESPONDER SITUATIONS.
I DON'T WANT US TO EVER RUN OUT OF A BATTERY CHARGE IN THE MIDDLE OF RESPONDING TO A FIRE OR, UH, OR A POLICE CHASE OR WHATEVER IT IS THAT WE'RE DOING.
I'D HATE TO SAY, OH, BATTERY LOW.
WE CAN'T PURSUE THE BAD GUYS ANYMORE.
UM, I, I, EVERYBODY I'VE, I'VE SPOKEN TO ON STAFF IS VERY REALISTIC, UH, ABOUT WHAT OUR EXPECTATIONS ARE.
AND, AND WHAT I'VE HEARD MOSTLY IS LOOK, IF THEY'RE GIVEN THESE THINGS AWAY, SURE.
HEY, IF IT'S A FREEBIE, WE'LL TAKE IT.
CUZ THE ONLY THING WE NEED TO WORRY ABOUT IS TIRES AND BATTERIES AT THAT POINT.
AND YEAH, THERE'S A STILL A SIGNIFICANT COST TO THOSE AS WELL.
WHAT DO YOU GUYS HAVE ON THIS? I KNOW HE'S GOT PLENTY TO SAY.
LEMME START WITH YOU MAYOR PRO.
IF HE'S, IF HE'S GOT IT ALL PINT UP, LET HIM COME.
I HAVE SOME NUMBERS THAT I'VE BEEN DOING SOME RESEARCH ON AS WELL.
DO YOU HAVE ANY NUMBERS ON, UH, REPAIR COST OF THESE? I KNOW YOU TALKED ABOUT THE MAINTENANCE, THE BATTERIES.
I KNOW THE ELECTRIC CARS, THEY DON'T HAVE OIL CHANGES AND THAT SUCH, BUT ELECTRIC CARS, THEY HAVE REPAIR COSTS.
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA ON THAT? VERY LITTLE.
IT'S, UH, THAT AVERAGE LIFETIME OPERATIONAL COST IS FUEL AND MAINTENANCE.
HOWEVER, WE ONLY HAVE THREE CURRENTLY.
UH, WHAT CONCERNS ME IS THE REPAIRS OF THESE, THE REPAIRS FROM STUDIES I'VE SEEN IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EXPENSIVE.
I DON'T IMAGINE THAT WE NECESSARILY HAVE TECHNICIANS THAT ARE QUALIFIED TO WORK ON ELECTRIC VEHICLES.
UH, LABOR COSTS I'VE SEEN IS 30% HIGHER.
UH, IF YOU GET YOUR BATTERY DAMAGED IN SAY, A FENDER BENDER, THAT'S A 20 TO $25,000 REPAIR OF A BATTERY ITSELF.
UH, WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT INSURANCE.
THESE ELECTRIC VEHICLES ARE MUCH HIGHER JUST BECAUSE OF THE HIGHER REPAIR COSTS.
ARE WE SELF-INSURED MR. CITY ATTORNEY ON ALL OF OUR VEHICLES.
SO IT'S, WELL, THAT'S UMBRELLA.
SO IT'S PURELY OUT OF POCKET FOR US.
THAT TO YOUR POINT STILL, IT'S STILL, WE'D BE PAYING THAT OUT OF POCKET THEN, WHICH MAKES IT EVEN MORE, UH, THIS IS NOT EVEN TO MENTION THE SOURCE OF THE BATTERY COMPONENTS, THE RARE EARTH MINERALS THAT ARE OFTENTIMES MINED BY CONGOLESE CHILDREN WHO ARE PAID $2 A DAY, OR LITHIUM THAT IS IN DESERT AREAS THAT USE VALUABLE WATER OR NICKEL IN INDONESIA, WHICH IS, HAS ITS OWN PROBLEM.
UM, TALK ABOUT THE LACK OF CHARGING STATIONS.
WE HAVE, UM, THE CHAIRMAN BROUGHT UP FIRST RESPONDERS, AND I WOULD HATE TO HAVE THAT SAME PROBLEM.
THESE BATTERIES ARE VERY FICKLED.
THEY'RE GOLDILOCKS BATTERIES THAT THEY DON'T WORK IF IT'S TOO HOT OR IF IT'S TOO COLD OR DON'T CHARGE TO THE MAXIMUM CAPACITY.
UM, VARIOUS PROBLEMS THAT I THINK THAT I WOULD NOT LIKE THE CITY TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS SORT OF THING, UNLESS, LIKE YOU SAID, THEY'RE GIVING AWAY FOR FREE.
AND JUST LOOKING AT THE MILEAGE THAT THESE HAVE BEEN DRAWN, OBVIOUSLY WE'RE NOT USING 'EM TO THEIR FULL CAPACITY EITHER.
UM, I'M NOT FOR THESE AT ALL RIGHT NOW IN THEIR CURRENT STATE OF TECHNOLOGY.
AND THE THING WITH THE BATTERIES AND THE FALSE, UH, FEEL GOOD OF DOING SOMETHING GREEN AND HEALTHY, THESE AREN'T, THEY ABSOLUTELY AREN'T.
UM, I, I WOULD NOT BE IN FAVOR OF US.
THAT'S, THAT'S JUST DOING ONE OF THE, UH, YOU KNOW, SIGNALING VIRTUE WHAT THAT IT IS ISN'T REAL.
AND THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOR US.
UM, I REALLY DO APPRECIATE ALL THE, UM, THE SPECIFICS HERE.
AND, AND CHARGING STATIONS THAT GO DOWN OVER HERE AT THE, THE BOXING GYM ABOUT EVERY THREE WEEKS, I GET SOMEBODY WHO SAYS, IT'S DOWN AGAIN.
THIS IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT'S STILL EARLY SOMEDAY.
THIS MAY BE PERFECT AND I WOULD BE FOR IT IF WE CAN FIND BETTER WAYS TO, TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THESE OTHER ISSUES, BUT, UM, CERTAINLY NOT NOW.
UH, COUPLE OF QUICK QUESTIONS.
UH, COMMITTEE ARE, ARE WE OKAY, I MEAN, IF WE'RE GETTING THESE FOR FREE AT SOME POINT, REPLACING THIS EXISTING FOOTPRINT, AND WE'RE STILL OKAY.
ACCEPTING BRIE, THE, THE FREE ELECTRIC VEHICLES THAT ARE ARE GRANT FUNDED.
I MEAN, THERE, THERE'S A FEW PLACES THEY COULD BE USED, SIR
TECHNICALLY, NOTHING'S FREE THOUGH.
THE GRANT, THE GRANTS COME WITH A, HE COULD PROBABLY TELL YOU, THEY COME WITH PROBABLY A
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50 PAGE BOOKLET OF DO'S DON'TS, WHICH YOU CAN, WHICH YOU CAN'T DO.WE'VE HAD GRANT VEHICLES BEFORE THAT WE'VE HAD TO DESTROY AND COULD NOT SELL.
WE'VE HAD SOME WE'VE HAD TO KEEP FOR 10 YEARS AND THEN YOU HAD TO DONATE 'EM.
THERE IS, LEMME BE VERY CLEAR AS FAR AS GRANT FUNDING GOES AND, AND ACCEPTANCE OF THOSE VEHICLES, UH, THAT WOULD NOT BE A COUNCIL DECISION.
THAT WOULD BE, UH, PRESUMABLY YOURS.
UH, BUT I WOULD NOT WANT TO EITHER COMPEL YOU TO, TO ACCEPT THOSE VEHICLES NOR PROHIBIT YOU FROM ACCEPTING THOSE VEHICLES IF YOU FOUND A SUITABLE USE FOR THEM.
BASICALLY, I'M TRYING TO GET ALL THE POLITICIANS OUT OF THE WAY AND LET YOU DO YOUR JOB.
WE, WE TRY NOT, NOT TO MENTION A VEHICLES MADE UP OF ABOUT 60% PETROLEUM PRODUCTS, WHICH THEY DON'T TELL YOU UHHUH,
AND THE IDEA OF GETTING AWAY FROM PETROLEUM PRODUCTS IS KIND OF FOOLISH FOR SOMEBODY TO SAY THAT IT'S GOING AWAY FROM PETROLEUM.
IT'S ACTUALLY PROBABLY USING MORE THAN THE MOTOR OIL THAT'S USED IN RECYCLED OUTTA CARS.
LOOKS GOOD IN A CAMPAIGN FLYER THOUGH.
UM, ONE OTHER QUICK ITEM CAME UP, UH, WHICH I THINK WE CAN COUNSEL SHOULD PROBABLY BOW OUT OF COMPLETELY.
UH, IN REGARDS TO IF YOU TAKE HOME AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE AND YOU PLUG IT IN IN YOUR GARAGE, UH, WHAT IS YOUR, UH, ARE, ARE WE GIVING YOU A STIPEND FOR THAT OR WHATEVER? UM, I DON'T THINK COUNSEL'S EVER WAITED ON THAT.
I THINK THAT'S MOSTLY IRS RULES AND SOMETHING THAT HR CAN MANAGE.
I, I DON'T SEE A NEED FOR US TO DEVELOP POLICY ON THAT, UH, UNLESS ANYBODY ELSE DOES.
IT'S A, IT'S A CORNER CASE THAT WE HAVEN'T, I DON'T BELIEVE WE'VE RUN INTO YET.
UH, BUT I THINK HR IS FULLY EQUIPPED TO HANDLE THAT DISCUSSION ON THEIR OWN WITHOUT OUR, OUR INVOLVEMENT.
ARE WE OKAY JUST KIND OF LETTING THAT PASS? NO, WE'VE HAD WITH AUDIT MM-HMM.
I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT STIPENDS FOR, YOU KNOW, INSTEAD OF HAVING A PCARD BUT YOU'RE PLUGGING THIS THING IN AT YOUR HOUSE POTENTIALLY.
I DON'T, WHICH INCURS A COST ON YOUR, AND, AND HR CAN DEAL WITH THAT.
I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THAT'S HARD TO, IT'S HARD TO QUANTIFY THIS.
YOU FILL UP THE TANK, YOU GET A RECEIPT FOR YOUR PURCHASE.
YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH NECESSARILY OF YOUR MONTHLY ELECTRIC BILL WENT INTO THAT CAR AT THAT TIME.
NO, I, I TALKED TO KRISTEN AND I SUGGESTED MAYBE YOU GUYS JUST COME UP WITH, IF THIS HITS, JUST COME UP WITH A FLAT AMOUNT, WHATEVER, UH,
UM, SO IF WE'RE OKAY, JUST LETTING THAT GO.
SO WHAT I'M HEARING FOR THE MOST PART IS WE HAVE NO POLICY TODAY AND WE REALLY SHOULDN'T HAVE ONE TOMORROW.
IS EVERYBODY OKAY WITH JUST LETTING THIS GO? I AM SO WE'LL COME BACK WITH NO RECOMMENDATION ON ANY, UH, FUTURE POLICY BACK TO THE COUNCIL.
LEMME PULL UP MY AGENDA AGAIN.
UH, ITEM TWO C, UH, DISCUSS PREDATORY PET LENDING.
UH, THIS WAS, I BELIEVE, WAS THIS YOURS OR WAS THIS MARGARET'S? I BELIEVE IT WAS MINE AND I WAS FOLLOWING UP ON IT.
BUT AFTER MR. CITY ATTORNEY JUMP IN FOR US AND YEAH, THIS WAS ONE OF THE THREE, IF Y'ALL RECALL, Y'ALL SENT THREE DIFFERENT BILLS TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE TO TWO OR THREE DIFFERENT COMMITTEES, I THINK TWO DIFFERENT COMMITTEES.
AND THIS WAS ONE OF THOSE, THIS WAS THE LAST OF THOSE THREE BILLS.
AND BASED ON THE, UM, COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE LANGUAGE OF THE PREEMPTION BILL THAT'S BEING DEBATED RIGHT NOW IN AUSTIN, UM, MY RECOMMENDATION WOULD BE THAT, THAT THE COMMITTEE AND COUNCIL DELAY ANY LEGISLATIVE LOCAL LEGISLATIVE ACTION ON THIS TOPIC UNTIL AFTER WE SEE WHAT WE END UP WITH IN JUNE.
MAYOR PROAM, IS THAT ACCEPTABLE FOR YOU? THAT IS, AND I, AND I WILL ALSO GO FURTHER THAN THAT AFTER, AFTER RESEARCHING THESE LAWS PRETTY MUCH NATIONWIDE.
I AM NOT FINDING EVEN A COUNTY THAT HAS SUCCESSFULLY, THERE'S A LOT OF, UH, OF CITIES AND COUNTIES THAT ARE TRYING TO ADDRESS THAT.
IT'S, IT'S NOT THE RIGHT, UM, VENUE TO DO THAT.
SO I WILL JUST WITHDRAW THAT AND WE CAN JUST LET IT GO.
SO WE'RE NOT GONNA TABLE, WE'RE JUST GONNA GO AHEAD AND KILL THIS HERE.
ITEM TWO D UH, DISCUSS THE CI CITY COUNCIL'S ETHICS ORDINANCE.
I HAD A, UH, AN IDEA
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THIS WAS, UH, BUDDY OF MINE'S, UH, TIED INTO LEGISLATIVE ISSUES AND HE POINTED OUT THAT GOVERNOR ABBOTT WAS TAKING A LOT OF MONEY FROM PEOPLE WHO WERE GETTING ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEALS.THAT'S, THAT'S PROBABLY NOT A GOOD THING.
UH, I KNOW WE HAVE ETHICS ORDINANCES WITHIN THE STATE THAT PROHIBIT THAT SORT OF THING, BUT, YOU KNOW, THEY CAN ALWAYS KIND OF WORK THEIR WAY AROUND IT.
AND I WAS CURIOUS TO SEE IF WE HAD THE ABILITY AT THE LOCAL LEVEL TO PREVENT, UH, COUNCIL MEMBERS FROM ACCEPTING CASH FROM PEOPLE THAT WE HAD ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEALS WITH FOR THE LIFE OF THOSE DEALS.
THEN YOU START THINKING ABOUT IT AND YOU GO, WELL, OKAY, WHAT IF THEY GET YOU BEFORE THE DEAL? AND, AND, AND USE THAT AS A, AS A, A WORKAROUND.
BUT I MEAN, YOU GET THE GENERAL IDEA, WHICH IS TO KEEP US, KEEP THE HONEST PEOPLE HONEST AND MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T HAVE THOSE CONFLICTS.
UH, THE GREAT THING ABOUT THE COUNCIL WE HAVE TODAY IS THAT I DON'T EVEN HAVE TO QUESTION THAT.
YOU SAW WHAT ED DID THE OTHER NIGHT, UH, WHEN IT EVEN LOOKED LIKE IT MIGHT BE A CONFLICT.
I'M GONNA ANNOUNCE IT TO THE ENTIRE PUBLIC THAT I'M GIVING THIS MONEY.
GREAT BEHAVIOR, GREAT BEHAVIOR, JUST POSTER CHILD FOR THE WAY YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO IT.
BUT WE KNOW THAT NOT, NOT EVERY COUNCIL IS THAT WAY.
UM, SO THE QUESTION I WANTED TO RAISE TODAY, ARE WE INTERESTED IN LOOKING TO TRY AND DEVELOP LANGUAGE THAT WOULD COVER THAT? UH, OR ARE THERE TOO MANY WAYS TO SHELL GAME IT INTO IRRELEVANCE? UH, AND SO I'M, I'M, I'M LOOKING FOR IDEAS, LOOKING FOR, UH, LANGUAGE POTENTIALLY AND WANTING TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE ANY INTEREST.
AND I ALSO, I I DON'T KNOW THE STATE LAW ON THIS WELL ENOUGH TO KNOW IF IT'S ALREADY BEEN COVERED.
SO THAT'S, THAT'S WHERE I LEFT IT.
I'D BE CERTAINLY IN FAVOR OF LOOKING AT IT.
AND, UM, RESEARCHING TO SEE WHO ELSE MAY HAVE ALREADY KIND OF WALKED THAT ROAD AND, AND WHAT PITS THEY'VE FALLEN INTO.
BUT, UM, YEAH, I MEAN THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.
THE, UH, THE COMPANY THAT, OR THE, THE BUSINESS, LOCAL BUSINESS THAT SENT ALL OF US, I THINK EXCEPT YOU CHECKS GENEROUS CHECKS, UM, AND REFERENCED A, UH, PASSAGE APPROVAL OF HIS, UM, I CAN'T REMEMBER NOW IF IT WAS S U OR ZONING CASE.
AND IT HAD ALREADY BEEN APPROVED, BUT THIS KIND OF CAME AS A THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS, WHICH I WAS GROSSLY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH AND RETURNED IT TO HIM.
BUT WE DON'T HAVE, OUR CURRENT ETHICS ORDINANCE DOESN'T CALL THAT OUT.
AND SO, UM, WELL, I'M WONDERING, I MEAN, DOES STATE LAW, AND I WOULD IMAGINE IT WOULD HAVE TO, IT WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT YOU, YOU CAN'T ACCEPT MONEY IN EXCHANGE FOR A VOTE.
AND SO WE KNOW THAT THAT'S APPLICABLE AT THE STATE LEVEL, BUT I ALWAYS WORRY ABOUT THINGS THAT EXIST AT THE STATE LAW THAT DON'T EXIST LOCALLY.
ARE WE, YOU KNOW, WHEN I SIT DOWN AS A COUNCIL PERSON TO READ THE ETHICS ORDINANCE, AND I HAVE WAY TOO MANY TIMES, UM, I MEAN, COMMON SENSE TELLS YOU THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING THERE.
THERE'S NOTHING UNDER STATE LAW OR FEDERAL AND, AND BOTH ON ALL LEVELS, IT'S, THIS ISSUE HAS BEEN PEOPLE HAVE TRIED TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.
UM, BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO PROVE INTENT NUMBER ONE OF THE REASONS WHY Y'ALL ARE VOTING THE WAY YOU'RE VOTING.
AND Y'ALL HAVE RIGHTS TO HAVE PEOPLE TO CONTRIBUTE TO YOUR CAMPAIGNS.
AND WHETHER THOSE PEOPLE CONTRIBUTE TO YOUR CANE BEFORE CAMPAIGN, BEFORE OR AFTER UNDER THE LAW, IT'S ALMOST, UNLESS THERE IS A STATEMENT, AN AFFIRMATIVE STATEMENT FROM EITHER Y'ALL OR THEM SAYING, THIS IS THE REASON I'M GIVING YOU A CAMPAIGN DONATION.
AND THEN THERE'S ALSO THE LAW THAT SAYS YOU CAN'T PERSONALLY BENEFIT AND IS A CAMPAIGN DONATION AT ANY TIME CONSIDERED A PERSONAL BENEFIT.
THAT'S ANOTHER DIFFICULT, IT'S ANOTHER LAYER.
AND THEN THERE'S ALSO THE LAYER OF, OF EVEN TRYING TO, TO ADDRESS IT THROUGH CAMPAIGN LIMITATION, CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION LIMITATIONS HAS BEEN FOUND TO BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
AND SO, UM, UM, SO THERE'S LIMITA I MEAN, IT'S JUST A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT, LIKE ALL ETHICS ORDINANCES, IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT, UM, ISSUE TO ADDRESS IF IT'S, IT'S A MATTER OF THE HEART AND IT MATTERS OF THE HEART, OR HARD TO LEGISLATE.
IF SOMEONE WANTS TO GET AROUND IT.
YOU SAID SHELL GAME, YOU MENTIONED THEY CAN GET THEIR BROTHER, THEY CAN GET SOMEONE ELSE A THIRD PARTY TO MAKE A DONATION AND YEAH.
AND YOU SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED THE CITY IN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEALS.
NOW WE COULD HAVE A SITUATION WHERE WE HAVE A 10 YEAR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEAL.
A NEW COUNCIL MEMBER COMES IN, NOT AWARE OF THAT, AND THEY'RE IN THE NINTH YEAR, AND THAT WAS NINE YEARS OF HISTORY.
AND THEY MAKE A DONATION TO THE NEW CANDIDATE OR COUNCIL PERSON RUNNING FOR REELECTION.
I MEAN, IT, THERE'S SO MANY PITFALLS HERE THAT
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IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT, I THINK TO, AND, AND ALSO GIVEN WHAT THE CITY ATTORNEY SAID THERE, IN THE END, YOU GOTTA RELY ON PEOPLE DOING THE RIGHT THING.IF THEY KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE BEING UNDERHANDED, AND THAT'S A POINT THE COURTS HAVE MADE REPEATEDLY IN THESE MATTERS.
AND THEY HAVE MADE THAT POINT.
AND THROUGHOUT THE CASE LAW, WHETHER IT'S STATE, OTHER STATES OR FEDERAL, THAT'S THE POINT THAT THE COURTS ALWAYS GO BACK TO.
I WASN'T READING THAT AS BEING, SO I ROLL OFF, SOMEBODY ELSE SITS HERE DURING MY TENURE, WE'VE HAD ECONOMIC DEALS THAT WENT LIVE, AND THEN SOMEBODY ELSE COMES AND SITS HERE.
AND YOU WOULD THINK IT WOULD JUST APPLY TO THE ORIGINAL COUNCIL MEMBER.
BUT AGAIN, THE DEVIL'S ON THE WORDING.
AND THERE IS A, YOUR PREDECESSOR USED TO SAY WORDS MATTER.
INTERESTINGLY, ON THAT POINT, UM, THERE ARE CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITATIONS ON, ON PROHIBITING OR LIMITING DONATIONS TO CAMPAIGNS.
UM, UM, I ACTUALLY THOUGHT ABOUT THIS A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO WHEN Y'ALL HAD DISCUSSED THIS.
MAYBE IN A COMMITTEE, MAYBE AT COUNCIL LEVEL, I DON'T REMEMBER.
BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I THOUGHT ABOUT WAS THE WAY WE DO OUR THREE 80 DEALS, YOU COULD ACTUALLY PUT A, A PROVISION IN THERE THAT YOU ARE PROHIBITED FROM GIVING ANY, UM, POLITICAL DONATIONS.
AND BY, BY ACCEPTING THESE, UM, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT FUNDS, YOU'RE PROHIBITED FROM GIVING ANY POLITICAL DONATIONS TO ANYBODY ASSOCIATED WITH THE CITY OF GARLAND.
YOU AND I TALKED ABOUT IT, THAT'S WHERE IT WAS PUTTING IT INTO THE DEAL AND PUTTING THE ONUS ON THE YEAH.
AND NOT MAYBE THE PEOPLE WHO COMPRISE THE ENTITY.
IT'S A GOOD IDEA AND A GOOD INTENT.
IT IS, UM, ETHICS ARE HARD TO ENFORCE.
AND IF THEY'RE, IF THEY'RE THE KIND OF PERSON WHO WOULD DO THAT, THEN THEY'RE THE PROBABLY THE KIND OF PERSON WHO WILL FIND A, A LOOPHOLE AND A WAY TO CRAWL THROUGH IT.
AND SO I, IS THERE ANY VALUE IN AT LEAST US SIGNALING THAT IT'S NOT OKAY BY INTRODUCING THAT LANGUAGE IN INTO THE THREE 80 AGREEMENTS, KNOWING THAT IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO WORK AROUND IT, THEY CAN, BUT WE'RE MAKING A STATEMENT OF INTENT AND, AND MAKING IT VERY CLEAR THAT WE'RE, WE'RE TRYING TO KEEP THE MONEY OUT OF THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS IN THAT WAY.
WE HAVE BULLER PLATE LANGUAGE THAT QUITE FRANKLY, AS I TELL Y'ALL ALL THE TIME, THAT SOME OF THE LANGUAGE THAT WE PLACE ISN'T, AND THESE DEALS ARE ASPIRATIONAL.
AND I MEAN, WE, AND IT'S IN EVERY DEAL.
SO WE COULD, WE COULD ADD THIS IN OUR BOILERPLATE LANGUAGE.
WELL, I HATE TO, TYPICALLY, I HATE WRITING LAW THAT CAN'T BE ENFORCED.
ANOTHER POINT OF THIS IS THE COUNCIL ETHNIC ORDINANCE, WILL IT BE ENFORCED BY COUNCILS? SURE.
AND TWO, YOU HAVE A CANDIDATE NOT ON COUNCIL AND ANOTHER CANDIDATE YEP.
RUNNING, YOU HAVE A DISPARITY RIGHT THERE.
AND THAT'S WHY YOU, YOU THROW IT INTO THE THREE 80.
HAVE WE SEEN THIS PARTICULAR, WELL, YOU, YOU TALKED ABOUT IT AT STATE LEVEL.
WELL, AND, AND WE SAW A, WHAT I WOULD SAY IS A COMPLETELY INNOCUOUS VERSION THE OTHER DAY WITH, WITH COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE'S ISSUE.
THAT WAS ONCE AGAIN, FOR THE RECORD HANDLED PERFECTLY MM-HMM.
PERFECTLY, BUT PERFECTLY, PERFECTLY.
I MEAN, THIS IS, THIS IS EXACTLY THE WAY IT SHOULD GO.
OH WAIT, WE HAVE A THING COMING UP.
BUT I MEAN, WE COULD, WE COULD WORK IT INTO THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENTS BECAUSE AS LONG AS THOSE ARE STILL LEGAL, WHICH, UH, THE LEGISLATURE HASN'T PRID IT US OUT OF YET, ALTHOUGH THEY'RE TRYING.
I WOULD JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE IF WE PUT THAT INTO THE BOILER PLATE OF FINE PRINT THAT GOES ON, THAT THAT IS ACTUALLY POINTED OUT SOMEWHERE, SOMEBODY JUST SO THAT THEY DON'T INADVERTENTLY BREAK THE LAW.
UM, IT WOULDN'T BE A BREAKING OF THE LAW.
IT WOULD BE A BREAKING OF THE CONTRACT.
IT WOULD BE A BREACH OF CONTRACT.
DO WE WANT, WE WANT THINGS, THINGS THAT WOULD'VE TO BE DIVORCE AND THE REMEDY WOULD'VE TO BE DECIDE.
YOU, IT'D BE UP TO THE CITY AT THAT POINT TO DECIDE HOW THEY WANT TO ADDRESS THE BREACH.
AND THAT SORT OF OPENS IT UP TO ALL SORTS OF NONSENSE, DOESN'T IT? I, I KINDA HATE TO DO THAT TO PEOPLE CUZ UH, OUR, FOR THE MOST PART, OUR PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING IN FOR THIS, THEY'RE JUST, THEY'RE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING
[00:30:01]
GOOD FOR THE CITY.THEY'RE WANTING TO PARTNER WITH US, AND THEN WE PUT A, A, A TRAP RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF
AND THEY MIGHT NOTICE IT AT FIRST AND THEY MIGHT FORGET IT IN TWO YEARS OR THREE YEARS.
OR, I, I, SO YOU KNOW WHAT? I PROBABLY WOULDN'T FAVOR THAT JUST FOR THAT REASON.
WOULD WE WANT TO THEN, IF THEY BREACH THE CONTRACT, SPEND THE RESOURCES AND TRY TO CLAW BACK THE MONEY? I MEAN, YOU'RE BE SPENDING MORE RESOURCES THAN RIGHT.
AND, AND IT'S WORTH BY THAT POINT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THESE ARE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INVESTED.
THERE'S PEOPLE THAT WORK THERE, THERE, THERE ARE JOBS AT STAKE.
THERE'S MAYBE, SO, I MEAN, THERE'S A REASON WE SIGNED THE DEAL TO BEGIN WITH.
SO THERE MAY BE A FINANCIAL REASON.
I WOULD HOPE THERE'S A FINANCIAL BENEFIT TO THE CITY BY GOING DOWN THAT PATH ANYWAY.
AND AS YOU SAY, THE VOTERS CAN VOTE.
SO, AND YOU'RE RIGHT, MR. CHAIR, THAT THE TRUTH IS THE, THE, WE DO THESE THREE 80 DEALS, NOT WITH INDIVIDUALS.
TYPICALLY WE DO THOSE WITH COMPANIES, LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANIES.
AND ALL THAT WOULD HAPPEN IS THE MANAGER OF THE LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY WOULD WRITE A PERSONAL CHECK AND NOT BREACH THE CONTRACT OR SOME OTHER C E O OR C F O OR SOMEBODY ELSE IN THE C-SUITE COULD WRITE A CHECK.
UM, OR HAVE A FRIEND DO IT OR, OR HAVE A SUBSIDIARY COMPANY DO IT.
UM, I'M HAPPY TO WITHDRAW THAT ITEM AND CALL IT DONE.
UH, STILL MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC, SO, UH, WE ARE AT ITEM.
THIS IS THE FIRST DAY OF C MEETING WHERE WE HAVE CLEARED THE SLATE AND HAVE NOTHING TO REPORT BECAUSE WE'VE AGREED.
ALL OF THESE ARE NON-STARTERS.
WELL AT, UH, 2:37 PM WE ARE ADJOURNED.
WELL, YOU ACCOMPLISHED YOUR GOAL, MR. CHAIR
AND WE DISCUSSED CHRIS IS GONNA LOVE FOR IT.
AS OPPOSED TO WHAT, UH, I INHERITED FROM BJ, WHICH WAS EVERYTHING
WHOEVER THE CHAIRPERSON IS DONE, 11 FOR.
NOW THE QUESTION IS, DO I GO HOME AND TRY TO WORK OR DO I JUST STAY HERE FOR THE NEXT HOUR AND A HALF AND.