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RIGHT,[Development Services Committee on August 19, 2024.]
IT'S FOUR O'CLOCK.SO WELCOME TO THE AUGUST 19TH, 2024 MEETING OF THE GARLAND DEVELOPMENT SERVICES COMMITTEE.
MYSELF, I'M CHAIRMAN DYLAN HEDRICK.
WITH ME, I HAVE JEFF BASS FROM DISTRICT ONE, AND I HAVE DEPUTY MAYOR PRO TIM MARGARET, LUCK.
FIRST ITEM ON OUR AGENDA IS THE APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES FROM THE JULY 15TH, 2024 MEETING.
I THINK WE HAVE SOMEONE WHO MAY BE WANTING TO SPEAK TODAY.
IT'LL JUST BE ON YOUR NEXT ITEM.
WE'LL, WE'LL TAKE YOUR COMMENTS RIGHT NOW AND THEN, YEAH, WE HAVE, UH, CHAIRMAN OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION.
DO I NEED TO GIVE NAME AND ADDRESS? SCOTT ROBERTS.
10 26 CREEKWOOD GARLAND, TEXAS.
WELL, I'M HERE MOSTLY FOR THE NEXT ITEM, WHICH IS THE, UH, PLAN COMMISSION, OUR WORK SESSION, PRE-MEETING, WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL IT.
AND I THOUGHT I'D GIVE A LITTLE, YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THE PROCESS? THOUGHT I'D AND YOU ARE TOO
THOUGHT I'D GIVE A LITTLE BACKGROUND ON HOW I SEE THE SYSTEM WORKING.
FIRST, WE HAVE STAFF THAT GIVES US THEIR BEST EDUCATED INPUT ON ZONING CASES.
AND WITH A LITTLE BIT OF INPUT FROM THE FOURTH FLOOR.
NOW WE AS COMMISSIONERS, WE GIVE OUR BEST CITIZEN INPUT AND WE'RE, WE DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE POLITICS OF IT.
AND THEN IT GOES TO COUNCIL, WHERE YOU TAKE WHAT WE'VE DONE, WHAT STAFF'S DONE, ASK YOUR OWN QUESTIONS.
AND I THINK THE REASON I'M, I'M GUESSING I DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO SEE HOW THIS CAME IN ON THE AGENDA 'CAUSE THE SERVER WAS DOWN WHEN I TRIED TO LOOK, BUT I'M GUESSING THERE'S PROBABLY SOME CONCERN OR SOME CITIZENS HAVE SAID, WELL, WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THE MEETING STARTS AND THIS AND THAT, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE POSTED.
YEAH, THEY VARY FROM FIVE 30 TO 6 30, 6 45 WHEN THEY START.
BUT THE REASON WE HAVE THE WORK SESSION IS FOR MULTIPLE PURPOSES.
ONE, ONE OF THE PARTS OF THE, EITHER THE CHARTER OR OUR BYLAWS SAYS WE'RE THERE TO INFORM AND EDUCATE THE CITIZENRY.
AND IT'S PART OF WHAT THE WORK SESSION DOES.
WE'RE IN A LESS FORMAL SETTING.
WE CAN ASK STAFF BACK AND FORTH QUESTIONS ABOUT A PROJECT.
AND MANY OF US ALL ASK QUESTIONS THAT WE KNOW STAFF DOESN'T KNOW, BUT WE'RE HOPING THAT THE APPLICANT WILL BE THERE AND THEN THEY WILL KNOW WHAT OUR CONCERNS ARE AND THEY CAN ADDRESS IT.
SO BY HAVING A WORK SESSION, THE PUBLIC BECOMES THERE.
THEY OFTEN COME THERE 'CAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON.
'CAUSE ALL THEY HAVE WITH LEGAL NOTICES SENT OUT WITH STAFF PRESENTATION TO GET A BETTER FEEL FOR IT.
WE ASK QUESTIONS BACK AND FORTH.
AND THEN ALSO THE APPLICANT, HE GETS TO HEAR OUR CONCERNS AND ADDRESS THOSE THINGS RATHER THAN, UH, SURPRISE 'EM WITH IT.
THERE USED TO BE ON THE COUNCIL, UH, CHAOS, A KIND OF A LIST OF RULES.
AND ONE OF THEM IS DON'T SURPRISE STAFF.
WELL, I TRY NOT TO SURPRISE THE PUBLIC OR APPLICANTS EITHER 'CAUSE WE'RE IN CUSTOMER SERVICE BUSINESS AND THE CITIZENS ARE OUR CUSTOMERS.
THE APPLICANTS ARE OUR CUSTOMERS.
UH, SO BY THAT PROCESS OF HAVING THAT AHEAD OF TIME, IT GIVES EVERYBODY TO CHANCE TO THINK ABOUT IT.
WE HAVE CITIZENS COME UP AND SAY, YEAH, WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON.
BUT NOW THAT WE'VE HEARD, WE'RE OKAY WITH IT.
AND WITH THAT TIME, INSTEAD OF JUST COMING UP STAFF, GETTING A PRESENTATION AND ASKING THE APPLICANT TO GIVE HIS PRESENTATION, THERE'S BUFFER TIME IN THERE FOR PEOPLE TO ABSORB WHAT'S BEEN SAID.
I'LL ASK QUESTIONS OR, UH, COMMISSIONER'S ASK QUESTIONS AND HE'S SITTING THERE ON HIS COMPUTER MODIFYING HIS PRESENTATION TO ANSWER OUR QUESTIONS.
SO THAT'S THE MAIN PURPOSE OF IT.
IN TERMS OF TIME, LET, LET ME GIVE YOU A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY.
LONG BEFORE I WAS ON IT, YOU KNOW HOW, UH, THE WORK SESSION MEETING WENT? STAFF WOULD PICK UP THE COMMISSIONERS IN A VAN AND WE'D DR.
THEY, THEY WOULD DRIVE AROUND THE CITY DISCUSSING.
AND THIS WAS ALSO BEFORE THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.
UH, THEY WOULD DISCUSS ALL THE PROJECTS AND EVERYTHING AND THEN GO INTO THE MEETING.
AND SO THAT CAME DOWN, BOILED DOWN TO OUR WORK SESSION.
YOU GUYS HAVE A WORK SESSION THE DAY BEFORE.
SO WE JUST COMPRESS THAT PROCESS A LITTLE BIT.
AND ONE THOUGHT IS, IF THERE'S CONCERNS ABOUT TIME STARTING ALL OVER THE PLACE, MAYBE WE JUST START ALL WORK SESSIONS AT SIX 30.
THEY GO BEYOND SEVEN, THEY GO BEYOND SEVEN.
WE JUST ADVERTISE IT DIFFERENTLY.
WORK SESSION STARTS AT SIX 30 AND THEN THE GO THROUGH THE WORK SESSION AND WE WOULD
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PROBABLY HAVE A BIT OF A RECESS AND, AND THEN GO INTO THE REGULAR DEAL.I WOULD HATE TO GIVE UP THE WORK SESSION PORTION.
I, I THINK IT'S JUST SO BENEFICIAL TO COMMISSIONERS, APPLICANTS AND CITIZENS TO HEAR SOME INFORMATION, DIGEST IT ALL AND THEN GO ON TO THE MAIN MEETING.
SEE, I TOLD YOU I COULD PROBABLY DO IT IN ABOUT THREE MINUTES.
ANY, ANY QUESTIONS FOR, I HAVE A FEW.
UM, ARE THERE INSTANCES WHERE COMMISSIONERS SKIP THE PRE-MEETING AND ONLY SHOW UP FOR THE REGULAR MEETING? UH, USUALLY NOT BY THEIR OWN CHOICE.
UH, USUALLY THERE'LL BE A CONFLICT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
UM, AND THEN, I MEAN, SO IF NO, NOBODY REGULARLY DID THAT KIND OF THING, NO.
UM, WATCHING PLAN COMMISSION MEETINGS.
'CAUSE I, I USUALLY WATCH THE NEXT DAY OR SO ONCE IT'S LOADED ON THE INTERNET, I USUALLY SEE A COUPLE PEOPLE GONE DURING THE PRE-MEETING.
AND THEN ONCE THE REGULAR MEETING STARTS, I SHOULD, I SEE THAT THEY'RE THERE.
UM, I'VE SEEN IT A COUPLE TIMES, BUT I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
UM, AND THEN HAVE THERE EVER BEEN INSTANCES WHERE PLAN COMMISSIONERS HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT THOSE AGENDA ITEMS DURING THE DINNER? NO.
IF ANYBODY DRIFTS CLOSE, I'LL SAY SOMETHING, COUNCIL WILL SAY SOMETHING OR ANYTHING ELSE? NO.
DURING THE DINNER, IT'S JUST PEOPLE GETTING TOGETHER.
UH, YOU KNOW, WE, WE MAY BE TALKING ROUND ABOUT SOMETHING AND GO, EH, WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE CLOSE TO THIS, LET'S CUT IT OUT.
SO I KEEP AN EYE OPEN FOR THAT.
AND THEN IS THE TIME TO KIND OF BOIL ON THE STAFF PRESENTATION, THE ONLY NEGATIVE IMP IMPLICATION THAT YOU CAN THINK OF THAT, UH, THAT CHANGING THIS PROCESS WOULD PROVIDE? UH, AGAIN, IT'S A LITTLE LESS FORMAL.
NOT BY MUCH, BUT A LITTLE LESS FORMAL WITH JUST THE STAFF PRESENTATION BACK AND FORTH AND NOT IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED UP BY, UM, THE APPLICANT.
AND ALSO, THERE ARE TIMES, AND, UH, STAFF WILL PROBABLY BACK ME UP ON THIS.
AFTER WE'VE ASKED QUESTIONS, THEY'LL GO AND TALK TO THE APPLICANT AND BACK AND FORTH.
AND SO THAT GIVES THEM SOME TIME TOO.
OR THEY'LL TALK TO THE PUBLIC IN THAT IN BETWEEN TIME.
ALRIGHT, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? UM, I, I JUST WANNA SAY SOMETHING FOR ANYBODY LISTENING, THE, UM, SEMANTICALLY THERE WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WORK SESSION AND PRE-MEETING, THOSE ARE THE SAME THINGS.
UH, I NOTICED IT SAID PRE-MEETING AND I'VE BEEN CALLING AT WORK SESSION.
SO JUST YEAH, FOR ANYBODY WHO HAS A QUESTION LISTENING, THAT'S, THAT'S THE SAME THING WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.
UH, KIND OF BACK TO YOUR POINT, YOU ASK IF WE EVER DISCUSS ANYTHING IN DINNER? UH, NO.
AND OH, ABOUT THREE OR FOUR TIMES A YEAR, I'LL PUBLICLY SAY BEFORE WE GO BACK, SAY, REMEMBER FOLKS, WE DON'T, YOU KNOW, I'M TALKING TO THE COMMISSIONERS, BUT I'M TALKING TO THE PUBLIC.
YOU KNOW, WE DON'T DISCUSS ANYTHING ABOUT THESE CASES WHILE WE EAT.
NOW WE, UH, THERE WAS ONE OPTION, YOU KNOW, WE COULD JUST START EVERYTHING AT SEVEN O'CLOCK, BUT THEN WE'RE ASKING STAFF TO STAY LATER TOO.
YOU KNOW, THEY'LL HAVE A TWO HOUR GAP BETWEEN THEN AND THE MEETING.
SO HERE'S A BALANCE HERE FOR THE STAFF, FOR THE CITIZENS AND THE APPLICANTS.
ALRIGHT, WELL THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
I'LL BE RIGHT HERE IF THERE ARE MORE QUESTION I, I'M, I KNOW WHERE YOU'RE SITTING.
ALRIGHT, SO MOVE ON TO OUR ITEM FOR INDIVIDUAL CONSIDERATION, REVIEW OF PLAN COMMISSION, PRE-MEETINGS.
UH, IS THERE ANYTHING FROM STAFF TO PRESENT ON THIS ITEM? OR IS IT JUST A DISCUSSION WITH COUNCIL? UH, THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS? UH, HERE, LEMME JUMP UP THERE, SCOTT.
SO I THINK, I THINK WHERE WE WANTED TO GO AT THIS POINT WAS TO KIND OF HEAR, UM, I THINK COUNCILMAN LUCK, YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE ONE THAT BROUGHT THIS FORWARD, I THINK TO HEAR, MAKE SURE WE'RE, WAS IT BJ? OKAY.
EITHER WAY, I WANNA MAKE SURE WE'RE, WE'RE HEARING KIND OF WHAT, WHAT THE CONCERN AND THE QUESTIONS ARE SO WE CAN MORE DIRECTLY ANSWER 'EM.
WE CAN DEFINITELY TALK FROM A HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE, UH, FROM WHAT STAFF, UM, HAS DONE IT'S, AND IT'S GONNA BE SIMILAR, SIMILAR, UH, DISCUSSION IN TERMS OF WHAT DO THEY COVER AND WHAT THE PURPOSE OF IT IS.
YOU WILL SEE OTHER CITIES HAVE SOME TYPE OF WORK SESSION.
UM, THEY'RE TYPICALLY POSTED COMPLETELY SEPARATELY.
UM, MAY HAVE A DIFFERENT, WELL DEFINITELY HAVE A DIFFERENT START TIME, BUT MAY HAVE THEIR OWN AGENDA AND THEN MOVING INTO THE, THE ACTION ITEMS FOR LATER THAT EVENING.
SO FROM, FROM THAT STANDPOINT, I THINK THE MAIN, UH, ISSUE THAT I HEARD IS MAKING SURE THAT EVERYTHING IS AS TRANSPARENT AS POSSIBLE AND AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE.
UM, AND FROM THAT STANDPOINT, I MIGHT ASK MR. LEVINE TO KIND OF TALK THROUGH WHAT, WHAT SOME OF THE CHALLENGES MAY OR MAY NOT BE, UM, AND HOW WE GO ABOUT THIS.
WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO YOU'RE FINE THERE.
UM, SO I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY, UH, OBVIOUSLY TODAY, UH, UH, BRIAN CAN'T BE HERE, BUT I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO CONVERSE WITH HIM ON THE PHONE AND
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DISCUSS SOME OF THE ISSUES.AND, AND, AND FROM A, FROM A LEGAL STANDPOINT, THERE ARE, THERE ARE TWO ITEMS. AND THEN FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT, THERE ARE A FEW OTHERS.
BUT, UM, THE FIRST IS, AND, AND, AND I THINK MI MR. ROBERTS ALLUDED TO IT, WHEN YOU HAVE A MEETING AND THEN YOU TAKE THE MEMBERS FROM THE MEETING BREAK, GO IN THE BACK ROOM, UM, YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND, I UNDERSTAND THAT THE THOUGHT PROCESS IS THAT THERE'S NO DISCUSSIONS THAT GO IN THE BACK ROOM, NOR SHOULD THEY, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE, UH, WOULD NOT BE IN, IN CONFORMANCE WITH THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT TO DO THAT.
UH, BUT THE APPEARANCE TO THE FOLKS SITTING OUTSIDE WHEN, WHEN THE MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE HAVE A, HAVE ADJOURNED TO THE BACK ROOM, UM, GIVES RISE TO CONCERN FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE.
UH, THE SECOND THING IS FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE IS THAT, UM, IN THE PRE-MEETING, UH, AND, AND ANGELA'S HERE, SHE CAN CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG ON THIS, BUT IN THE PRE-MEETING, STAFF WILL GIVE THE PRESENTATION, UM, TO THE MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION.
AND SOMETIMES MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO BE THERE FOR THE PRE-MEETING AS WELL, AS WELL AS THE, UH, AS WELL AS THE, UH, REGULAR MEETING.
UH, AND DEVELOPERS MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND THAT EITHER.
SO THAT, BUT THAT BY THE TIME THEY ARRIVE, UM, THERE'S INFORMATION THAT WAS PROVIDED TO THE COMMISSION THAT, THAT THEY, THOSE FOLKS DIDN'T UNDERSTAND.
AND SO, UM, TO THE EXTENT THAT MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION ARE RELYING ON THE INFORMATION THAT WAS PROVIDED TO THEM IN THE PRE-MEETING, THAT MAY NOT AGAIN, THEN BE PROVIDED IN THE REGULAR MEETING.
UM, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE THERE FOR THE WHOLE THING, THAT'S ONE THING.
IF YOU WEREN'T, UH, 'CAUSE YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND ATTENDANCE AT THE PRE-MEETING WAS IMPORTANT, THAT CAN ALSO LEAD TO, UH, AN APPEARANCE, UM, THAT DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE BASED ON INFORMATION THAT'S NOT SET FORTH IN THE REGULAR MEETING.
UH, AND SO, AND SO THOSE WERE THE TWO, UM, I, I GUESS I WOULD CALL THEM MORE LEGAL, UH, ISSUES.
UM, BRIAN INDICATED TO ME AS WELL THAT THERE, THERE ARE A FEW OTHER THINGS THAT, THAT, UM, HAVE ARISEN.
ONE IS, UM, AND THIS IS NOT A REASON TO TAKE ANY ACTION HERE SPECIFICALLY, BUT WE HAVE OTHER COMMITTEES AND BOARDS THAT ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW, HEY, IF WE'VE GOT THE PLAN COMMISSION DOING PRE-MEETINGS, WE'D ALSO LIKE TO DO PRE-MEETINGS FROM THE CITY ATTORNEY'S PERSPECTIVE, FROM OUR OFFICE'S PERSPECTIVE, THE PRACTICE, UM, EE EVEN IF, EVEN IF EVERYTHING IS GOING ACCORDING TO HOYLE, IT OBVIOUSLY PROVIDES THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THINGS NOT TO GO WELL.
UM, SO EXPANDING THAT PRACTICE, UH, ISN'T SOMETHING, UM, THAT, THAT, THAT WE WOULD RECOMMEND.
AND, AND IN ADDITION TO THAT, UM, WE LOOKED AT, AND, AND ANDY ALLUDED TO THIS, WE LOOKED AT OTHER CITIES.
OFTENTIMES IF, IF OTHER CITIES ARE GOING TO ENGAGE IN THE PRACTICE OF HAVING A WORK SESSION DISCUSSION, THEY WILL NOTICE THAT MEETING SEPARATELY, UH, AS A WORK SESSION MEETING, THEY WILL CON THEY, THEY WILL DISCUSS THE MATTER WITH TAKING NO ACTION, UH, AND THEN CLOSE THE WORK SESSION AND THEN LATER ON IN A DIFFERENT MEETING, UM, CONVENE TO TAKE ACTION ON THE ITEM.
AND SO, SO YOU DON'T, YOU ELIMINATE THIS SENSE OF CONFUSION THAT WE'RE GONNA BE DEBATING AND DISCUSSING AND, AND LISTENING TO THINGS AT THE WORK SESSION THAT WE'RE GONNA BE TAKING ACTION AT A FOLLOWING MEETING.
UM, SO THOSE, THOSE ARE THE, THE ISSUES THAT, THAT, UH, BRIAN AND I DISCUSSED.
I, I CONCUR WITH HIS THOUGHTS AND, AND I THINK FROM THE CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, UH, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, UH, IT'S NOT THAT, IT'S NOT THAT A PRE-MEETING IS UNLAWFUL, IT'S THAT IT RAISES SOME CHALLENGES.
UH, AND, AND, AND, UM, AND IS IS SUBJECT TO THE APPEARANCE, UM, THAT THINGS MAY NOT BE GOING AS THEY SHOULD IN TERMS OF THE OPEN MEETING ACT.
AND I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS YOU MAY HAVE HALF.
ANY QUESTIONS REGARDING THAT? WELL, NO, THE ONLY THING, I MEAN, IT, IT SAYS ON THE AGENDA THAT THE PRE-MEETING STARTS AT SIX 15.
UM, I MEAN, MAYBE THAT COULD BE A LITTLE LARGER.
MAYBE IT COULD BE LISTED AS A SEPARATE, UH, AS A SEPARATE MEETING.
UM, HONESTLY, I THINK THE, THE PERCEPTION THAT THINGS ARE, YOU KNOW, CONVERSATIONS ARE HAPPENING DURING DINNER, I MEAN, UM, I MEAN THAT THAT'S, PEOPLE ARE GONNA PERCEIVE WHATEVER, WHATEVER THEY PERCEIVE, AND WE CAN'T, WE CAN'T MANAGE AROUND PEOPLE'S PERCEPTIONS AS FAR AS THAT'S CONCERNED.
SO, UH, I'M PERSONALLY NOT CONCERNED WITH THAT AT ALL.
I THINK MAYBE, UM, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE, UH, PRE-MEETING PORTION, EITHER THE, YOU KNOW, EITHER SAY THAT THE MEETING STARTS AT WHATEVER, SIX O'CLOCK OR LISTED AS A SEPARATE MEETING.
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SO, BUT AS FAR AS THE PERCEPTION THAT PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT CASES OVER DINNER, I DON'T, I DON'T THINK THERE'S, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, YOU'RE NOT GONNA FIX THAT PERCEPTION.I MEAN, PEOPLE COULD SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT US.
WE HAVE A WORK SESSION ON MONDAY, WE MEET ON TUESDAY.
THEY COULD SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR ALL THEY KNOW WE'RE MEETING IN BETWEEN THAT.
RIGHT? I MEAN, YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T CONTROL PEOPLE'S, PEOPLE'S PERCEPTIONS.
BUT WE TYPICALLY DON'T TALK ABOUT ZONING CASES DURING WORK SESSIONS.
UM, SO I, I MEAN, JUST BECAUSE THE PLANNING COMMISSION STRICTLY DEALS WITH ZONING CASES.
UM, IF, IF EVERYTHING WASN'T SANDWICHED TOGETHER, HAVING A PRE-MEETING, AND THEN, AND THEN, OR I GUESS THE PRE-MEETING INFORMATION AND THEN THE DEVELOPER CONVERSATION, UM, OR APPLICANT CONVERSATION, UM, I WOULD RATHER SEE THE PRE-MEETING HAPPEN.
AND THEN RIGHT AFTER THAT THE, THE ACTION ITEMS DISCUSSED.
UM, I MEAN IF THEY, IF IF HAVING THEM SEPARATE IS A CONCERN, I THINK IT WOULD BE BETTER TO JUST HAVE THE PRE-MEETING AND THEN GO RIGHT INTO THE REGULAR MEETING STACKING DINNER IN THERE.
AND I'M NOT TRYING TO SAY THAT THERE'S ANY IMPROPRIETY AT ALL.
I, I WAS ON THE PLAN COMMISSION.
I WOULD HATE FOR SOMEONE TO ACCUSE ME OF THAT.
UM, UH, IT JUST MAKES MORE SENSE THAT THINGS ARE CLOSER TOGETHER.
IF YOUR CONCERN IS HAVING, UH, THE RESIDENTS CUSTOMERS KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON IN A MORE INFORMAL ENVIRONMENT, UM, THEN THEY HAVE TO WAIT AN HOUR FOR THE MEETING TO START.
AND I DON'T KNOW, I, I WOULD BE A LITTLE PERTURBED ABOUT THAT.
IF I WERE COMING THERE TO HEAR A CASE AND, AND IT CONCERNED MY NEIGHBORHOOD OR WHATEVER, UM, I WOULDN'T WANT TO GO TO THE PRE-MEETING AND THEN WAIT AN HOUR AND THEN GO INTO THE REGULAR MEETING.
THAT WOULD, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING I WOULD WANT TO GO THROUGH IF, IF I COULD ADD LEGAL COMMENT IS IS CLEAR.
I THINK FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT, THE ONLY CONCERN THAT I SEE TOO IS, IS THAT NOT EVERYONE INTERPRETS THAT AGENDA THE SAME.
AND SO YOU MAY HAVE AN APPLICANT AND IT HAPPENED A FEW TIMES THAT I'M AWARE OF, AREN'T AWARE OF THE OPPORTUNITY THAT'S, THAT'S THERE TO BE, TO BE, TO BENEFIT FROM THOSE DISCUSSIONS AND, AND ARRIVE AT A TIME.
UM, 'CAUSE QUITE HONESTLY, IT'S, YEAH, IT'S REALLY, IT'S REALLY, IT'S VARI.
SO I FEEL LIKE THERE'S PROBABLY AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A MIDDLE GROUND TO ACHIEVE BOTH GOALS.
AND I THINK, UH, AGAIN, I, I HATE TO SEE ANY APPLICANT BE AT A DISADVANTAGE OR MISCONSTRUE WHAT THEIR OPPORTUNITIES ARE OR BENEFIT FROM A DISCUSSION, SEEING THE PRESENTATION.
IT'S, IT'S TWO, IT APPEARS TO BE TWO DIFFERENT MEETINGS, TWO DIFFERENT LEVELS OF DISCUSSION.
UM, AND I THINK THAT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT, IT IS IMPORTANT TO, TO FIX.
YEAH, AND I THINK, I MEAN, I WOULD AGREE HAVING 'EM BACK TO BACK IS A SOLUTION AS WELL.
AND IS A, IS A DIFFERENT POSTING.
HOWEVER, WE, YOU KNOW, WE'LL SEEK LEGAL GUIDANCE AND FIGURE OUT WHAT THE BEST POSTING METHODOLOGY IS AND THEN WE'LL TALK THROUGH SCHEDULING AS WELL.
AND TO BE CLEAR, ONCE YOU'VE, ONCE YOU'VE UH, CONDENSED THOSE INTO A BACK TO BACK SITUATION, THEN THE QUESTION BECOMES, UH, OKAY, STAFF'S MADE THEIR PRESENTATION, NOW THE DEVELOPER'S GONNA COME UP AND SPEAK.
UM, I, I DON'T KNOW, I GUESS THE QUESTION WOULD BE, FROM AN ATTORNEY'S PERSPECTIVE, HAVING ALL THE INFORMATION IN, IN ONE HEARING IS, IS OBVIOUSLY PREFERABLE THAN, THAN HAVING BASICALLY A TWO PART MEETING, ONE IN WHICH STAFF PRESENTS, AND THEN ONE IN WHICH THE DEVELOPER, UH, PRESENTS.
BECAUSE YOU REALLY WANT, UM, FOR, UM, THE BENEFIT OF ALL, YOU WANT EVERYONE TO BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE AND HEAR BOTH THOSE PIECES TO THE MEETING.
SO I I, IF, IF WE'RE GOING TO COLLAPSE IT INTO A BACK TO BACK, UH, I, IN KEEPING IN MIND, UM, THIS IS A RECOMMENDING BODY, RIGHT? SO, SO IF YOU HAVE A LANDOWNER OR YOU HAVE A DEVELOPER WHO COMES TO THE MEETING AND FINDS OUT INFORMATION FOR THE FIRST TIME, UM, THAT MATTER'S GONNA BE PRESENTED BEFORE COUNCIL, BEFORE A DECISION'S ULTIMATELY MADE, BECAUSE THIS IS A RECOMMENDING BODY GIVES THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO CIRCLE THE WAGONS TO, TO MAKE PROPOSED CHANGES OR ADDRESS COMMENTS.
UM, THEY, THEY HAVEN'T, THEY HAVEN'T LOST THAT OPPORTUNITY.
UM, SO, UM, BUT, BUT OF COURSE, AS I SAID, THOSE, YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE THOUGHTS THAT, THAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO ASSEMBLE AT THE CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE OVER YEARS OF PARTICIPATING IN, AND THOSE ARE JUST RECOMMENDATIONS.
SO FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, IT FEELS LIKE REDUNDANT TWO BACK IDENTICAL MEETINGS, BUT TWO DIFFERENT FO YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE, IT WOULD BE ODD TO HAVE COUNSEL PRESENT IN A, IN A PRE-MEETING AND THEN COUNSEL
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PRESENT AGAIN IN THE MEETING AFTER THE PRE-MEETING WHEN YOU'VE JUST TRANSITIONED FROM A PRE-MEETING TO THE MEETING.IF YOU'RE, IF THAT'S THE PLAN THEN, THEN REALLY PRESENTING ALL THE INFORMATION TOGETHER IS PROBABLY THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY TO DO THAT, I WOULD THINK.
AND SO IN A COMMISSION MEETING THERE, IF LET'S SAY IT'S A SINGLE COMMISSION MEETING, THERE'D BE NO, NO REASON THERE COULDN'T BE BACK AND FORTH DISCUSSION AMONGST AND QUESTION BETWEEN STAFF, APPLICANT AND THE COMMISSION.
SIMILAR TO WHAT'S ON COUNCIL THEN, RIGHT? RIGHT.
I WOULD PREFER TO SEE THE PROCEEDINGS MATCH COUNCIL.
UM, I, HALF OF MY TIME ON THE PLAN COMMISSION WAS DURING COVID, SO IT WAS ALL ZOOM
UM, BUT I, UH, BECAUSE THE PLAN COMMISSION RECOMMENDS STRAIGHT TO COUNCIL AND THEY GIVE US THEIR OPINION, UM, THERE'S PLENTY OF TIME, AS MR. LEVINE SAID, FOR THE APPLICANT TO GO OVER, GO OVER THEIR PROJECT AND MAKE CHANGES AND ACTUALLY HAVE, YOU KNOW, TIME TO SPEAK WITH STAFF.
THERE'S NO SHOT CLOCK ANYMORE.
SO THERE'S EVEN MORE TIME IN SOME INSTANCES.
UM, I JUST, UH, I, I WOULD RATHER SEE WHAT THEY DO MIRROR WHAT WE DO.
IT MAKES IT TO ME MORE PROFESSIONAL.
AND, UM, I, I HEARD TALK OF INFORMALITY, BUT I THINK THESE ARE ACTUALLY VERY FORMAL MEETINGS.
UM, THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THIS IS, THIS IS A BIG DECISION FOR THE PLAN COMMISSION AND UM, I THINK THAT IT SHOULD MIRROR WHAT WE DO IN COUNSEL.
I, I, I, I GUESS I'M TRYING TO, UH, I MEAN I UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, IT'S TWO SEPARATE MEETINGS NOW AND I GUESS ONE THING I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY, YOU KNOW, NOT TAKING AN HOUR BREAK IN BETWEEN CHANGES ANYTHING FROM A LEGAL ASPECT.
I DON'T, I DON'T QUITE FOLLOW THAT.
UM, BUT IT WOULD MAKE SENSE TO ME IF WE DO TAKE OUT THE BREAK IN BETWEEN TO HAVE IT AS JUST ONE MEETING.
UM, I'M TRYING TO THINK OF WHAT THE ARGUMENT WOULD BE AGAINST THAT, AGAINST NOT HAVING IT AS ONE MEETING.
I THINK THE ISSUE NOW IS THAT IT'S NOT CLEAR WHAT HAPPENS DURING THE PRE-MEETING.
I WAS LOOKING BACK THROUGH AGENDAS, EVEN BACK TO WHEN I WAS ON THE PLAN COMMISSION.
I WAS IN, LET'S JUST PULL UP ONE FROM 2018.
IT JUST HAS THE SAME EXACT TEXT.
A PRE-MEETING WILL BEGIN AT WHATEVER TIME IT IS.
AND THE AGENDA FOR THE PRE-MEETINGS THE SAME AS THE REGULAR MEETING.
IT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT STAFF BEING THERE.
IT DOESN'T SAY THAT THERE'S GONNA BE, THE DEVELOPERS SHOULD CONSIDER ATTENDING THAT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
SO IF WE WANT TO CHANGE, I'M, I'M ALL FOR MAKING IT WORK THE BEST WAY IT CAN, WHETHER IT'S TWO MEETINGS OR ONE, BUT AT LEAST BEING CLEAR ABOUT WHAT THAT PRE-MEETING IS.
I THINK AT A, AT A MINIMUM THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE PRE-MEETING, WHAT TIME IT IS FIRST OF ALL.
BECAUSE I MEAN, YEAH, YOU HAVE TO REALLY LOOK, READ THE, THE, ALL THE PRINT AT THE TOP THAT NOBODY READS, RIGHT.
TO FIND OUT THAT THERE IS A PRE-MEETING AND WHAT TIME IT STARTS.
SO I THINK THE, AT A BARE MINIMUM, WE NEED TO HAVE MORE TRANSPARENCY IN THAT INFORMATION WOULD BE PROPER FOR ME TO SPEAK AGAIN.
I ALREADY COME TO SOME OF THIS CONCLUSION.
THE PERCEPTION, UH, THAT THAT COULD BE, EVEN THOUGH I KNOW THAT ANY DISCUSSION IS THOROUGHLY CONTROLLED IN ANY DINNERS OR ANYTHING THAT, AND PEOPLE HAVING TO WAIT POSSIBLY AN HOUR WHEN STAFF DOES ITS BEST TO SET THE TIMELINE WHERE IT STARTS.
AND THEN THERE'LL BE A LITTLE BIT OF A BREAK AND THEN THE MEETING STARTS.
SO I THINK A HAPPY MEDIUM WOULD BE MAYBE A SIX 30 START WHERE WE HAVE STAFF BRIEFING.
'CAUSE WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE THE DEVELOPMENT PROCESS EASIER FOR APPLICANTS TO GO, LIKE THE CITY COUNCIL DOES.
AND AGAIN, YOU'RE THE SECOND GO AROUND.
SO IT'S, TO ME, IT'S A DIFFERENT TYPE OF MEETING TO HAVE A SECOND, UH, IN THE FIRST GO AROUND.
FOR ME TO HAVE 'EM ASKED QUESTIONS THAT THEY PROBABLY NEED TO LOOK UP TO ANSWER IMMEDIATELY WHILE THEY'RE STANDING THERE ISN'T AS FRIENDLY TO THE DEVELOPMENT PROCESS.
NOW IF THEY HEAR THOSE QUESTIONS BEFORE THEY CAN BE THINKING AND HAVING ANSWERS.
SO I'M THINKING IN THIS CASE, THE DEVELOPER AND ALSO THE PUBLIC, YOU KNOW, 'CAUSE THEY COME WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE AND IF THEY HEAR THIS STUFF BEFOREHAND AND SAY WE EVEN HAVE A FIVE MINUTE, 10 MINUTE BREAK BETWEEN THE WORK
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SESSION PORTION AND THE ACTION PORTION.IT GIVES EVERYBODY TIME TO SETTLE DOWN A LITTLE BIT TOO.
MY, MY QUESTION WOULD BE THEN AT FIRST POSTING FOR THE OFFICIAL MEETING, IF YOU SAY STARTED AT SIX 30, AND THIS MIGHT BE QUESTION FOR LEGAL AT, YOU START AT SIX 30, IT RUNS LONG.
IS THERE ANY ISSUE WITH SAYING, WELL, THE ACTUAL MEETING STARTS AT SEVEN, BUT WE'RE RUNNING LONG BECAUSE OF POSTING ISSUES? I, I WOULD JUST ROLL 'EM TOGETHER.
AND, AND THEN THE CHAIR OR YOU KNOW, OR THE BYLAWS SAY, YOU KNOW, WE WILL HAVE A STAFF BRIEFING AND THEN WE WILL HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING PORTION INSTEAD OF TRYING TO BREAK IT UP TIME-WISE, WE WILL END UP WITH THE SAME SITUATION.
NOW IS AND CHAIR, YOU KNOW, MAYBE AS A CHAIR OR BYLAW, UH, IS IT PREFERABLE TO HAVE ALL THE STAFF BREEDING BRIEFINGS ON ALL THE ITEMS IN ONE BLOCK AND THEN GO INTO THE ITEMS FOR CONSIDERATION ONE BY ONE OR HAVE THAT STAFF BRIEFING, BRIEFING FOR THAT ITEM, TAKE A VOTE, ANOTHER STAFF BRIEFING, BRIEFING FOR THAT ITEM, TAKE A VOTE.
UH, I LIKE THE BRIEFING BLOCK FIRST.
'CAUSE THAT PROVIDES THE TIME, WHETHER IT'S FIVE MINUTES OR 10 MINUTES FOR THE APPLICANT AND THE PUBLIC TO ABSORB WHAT HAS BEEN SAID.
UM, WE HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO GO BACK AND FORTH.
WE ACTUALLY CALL STAFF BACK UP, UM, WHEN THEY'RE, AND, AND WHEN AFTER THE, UH, APPLICANT HAS ALREADY SPOKEN.
I FEEL LIKE WE HAVE PLENTY OF BACK AND FORTH.
UM, AND I KNOW IT'S A DIFFERENT SETUP AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S RIGHT.
I, I SEE 'EM AS DIFFERENT PURPOSES TOO.
UH, WE'RE WE'RE THERE TO FLESH OUT THE ISSUES FOR Y'ALL, YOU KNOW, LUCKILY I KNOW IT DOESN'T HAPPEN.
75% OF THE ISSUES HAVE BEEN FLUSHED OUT BY THE TIME YOU FOLKS SEE IT.
I, I'VE OBSERVED THAT THERE'S MORE QUESTIONING OF STAFF DURING PLAN COMMISSION MEETINGS THAN ARE GENERALLY OF COUNCIL MEETINGS.
SO, UM, YOU KNOW, CITY OF DALLAS DOES IT THIS WAY.
THEY HAVE A PRE-HEARING IN THE MORNING AND THEN IN THE AFTERNOON THEY HAVE, AND YEAH.
SO OTHER CITIES DO KIND OF SPLIT THEIR RIGHT, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE HUNDREDS OF ZONING CASES TO LOOK AT
THEY CERTAINLY DO SOMETIMES, YES.
AND I, I AGREE WITH, UH, THE PERCEPTION ISSUE AND THE TIME DETERMINATIVE ISSUE.
WE'RE INVOLVED IN A PROCESS WE KNOW TO LOOK, THE PUBLIC DOESN'T KNOW TO LOOK, OH, THIS IS SIX 15 INSTEAD OF SEVEN, THINGS LIKE THAT.
AND BEFORE, UH, WILL GARRIN LEFT, UH, I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT WHEN WE HAVE SHORT AGENDAS, LET'S JUST START EVERYTHING AT SEVEN.
AND IN ESSENCE DOING WHAT I, I KIND OF PROPOSE WE'LL GET THE STAFF BRIEFINGS, START THOSE AT SEVEN AND THEN, YOU KNOW, USUALLY JUST A CASE OR TWO.
SO WHAT I'M HEARING IN THIS COURSE, WE CAN TAKE TO COUNCIL FROM OUR RECOMMENDATIONS, BUT COMBINE 'EM TO ONE MEETING STARTS AT SIX 30, HAVE A BLOCK FOR STAFF PRESENTATION TIME, AND THEN THEY GO INTO THE MEETINGS FOR THEIR, THEIR VOTE AFTER THAT.
THAT'S, IS THAT KIND OF WHAT, AND MAYBE A LITTLE BETTER DESCRIPTION OF WHAT ACTUALLY THE AGENDA ITEM WOULD BE AT THAT POINT FOR WHAT THE PRE-MEETING CONTAINS.
HAVING THAT ON THE AGENDA SPELLED OUT SPECIFICALLY AS A STAFF PRESENTATION.
NO DECISIONS ARE MADE AT THIS TIME, THAT SORT OF THING, BUT REASONABLE.
I'D, I'D LIKE TO HEAR STAFF'S FEEDBACK ON IT.
IF, IF YOU DON'T MIND, AND ONE EXAMPLE I'LL GIVE OF SURPRISING AN APPLICANT, SAY A CIVIL ENGINEER COMES BEFORE US AND, AND WE KNOW PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT RUNOFF.
AND IN THE WORK SESSION, I CAN ASK, AND YOU ALL KNOW I DO THIS, I ASK QUESTIONS.
AND IF YOU WERE TO STEP UP AND SAY, OKAY, HOW MANY GALLONS OF WATER, ACTUALLY, OKAY, YOU CANNOT ANSWER THAT RIGHT AWAY.
MAYBE MAKE A QUICK PHONE CALL AND GET THOSE NUMBERS.
THAT'S THE PROCESS I'M LOOKING FOR.
TRYING TO MAKE IT A LITTLE FRIENDLIER FOR DEVELOPERS.
ANGELA, I THINK, UH, IF YOU WOULD PLEASE DEPUTY MAYOR PRO TIM HAD A, WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM STAFF PERSPECTIVE ON REARRANGING THE MEETING.
UM, WHAT WOULD, IN AN IDEAL WORLD,
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IT, UM, I THINK WE'VE KIND OF SETTLED ON COMBINING THE TWO, THE TWO MEETINGS INTO ONE TIME SLOT.SO WOULD YOU PREFER TO HAVE THAT PRE-MEETING AND THEN JUMP INTO A REGULAR MEETING? OR WOULD YOU PREFER TO HAVE IT LIKE COUNCIL SET UP AND MERIT MORE LIKE THAT? I DON'T HAVE A PREFERENCE.
I THINK THAT, UM, IT'S A GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING TO SEE IF THERE'S A BETTER WAY OF DOING IT.
SO I DON'T REALLY HAVE A PREFERENCE.
I THINK THERE ARE BENEFITS TO BOTH.
UM, AND WE CAN EXPLORE, UH, WHICH OPTION WORKS BEST HERE.
ALRIGHT, SO ARE WE WILLING TO TAKE A RECOMMENDATION TO COUNT TO COUNCIL THEN FROM THIS COMMITTEE ABOUT COMBINING MEETINGS INTO ONE LITTLE BETTER EXPLANATION ON THE AGENDA WITH ITEM PRE-MEETING IS THEN GO FROM THERE.
IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE? YEAH, I THINK THAT IF, I THINK QUITE HONESTLY, THAT WOULD BE OUR PREFERENCE.
I THINK IT IT TO ALL THE ISSUES THAT WERE SPOKEN ABOUT.
AND TO YOUR POINT, IT, IT IS A SIMPLER PROCESS.
NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT STRICTLY LAND USE ENTITLEMENT.
IT'S NOT A, IT'S NOT A-A-D-D-P ANYMORE.
AND SO THOSE ARE ALL GONNA BE HANDLED AT THE SITE PLAN LEVEL GOING FORWARD ANYWAY.
THERE'S, THERE'S NOT GONNA BE ROOM FOR THAT DISCUSSION ON RUNOFF CALCULATIONS.
UM, SO I THINK WHEN WE'RE, NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT STRICTLY LAND USE COMPATIBILITY, ALL THE THINGS THAT THE CODE SAYS, WHAT, WHAT ARE THE DEVIATIONS OR VARIANCES THAT ARE BEING REQUESTED TO PUT INTO A, A PD? SO I THINK FROM A PRACTICALITY STANDPOINT, IT, IT'S MUCH SIMPLER TO HAVE A SINGLE MEETING.
IF I COULD BE AS BOLD OFF FOR AN OPINION.
UM, I THINK THAT, THAT, THAT DIALOGUE CAN BE HAD BACK AND FORTH, UM, DURING, DURING ONE PRESENTATION RATHER THAN HAVING A FULL PRESENTATION IN THE, IN THE BEGINNING, IN A SMALLER VERSION OF THE PRESENTATION.
WHEN THE GENERAL PUBLIC FEELS THAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE THERE OR THE DEVELOPER'S SUPPOSED TO BE THERE.
UH, I THINK ALL OF THAT DIALOGUE AND BANTER CAN BE HAD BEFORE IT BECOMES OPENING THE, THE PUBLIC HEARING PORTION OF IT.
UM, TO, TO ANSWER ALL THOSE QUESTIONS THAT ARE APPROPRIATE AT THAT PHASE.
WHETHER THAT'S 6 37, WHATEVER SEEMS TO BE LOGISTICALLY PALATABLE.
I, I STILL STAND BY, I WOULD LIKE IT TO MIRROR THE COUNCIL MEETING.
UM, BUT YOU KNOW, I'M JUST ONE
WE COULD TAKE THE, THAT RECOMMENDATION TO THE FULL COUNCIL AND THEN WE HAVE MORE DISCUSSION AT THAT POINT WHEN I DO MY COMMITTEE REPORT.
OR WELL, TWO, TWO OUT OF THREE.
WELL,
THAT, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY PART OF IT.
AND IT SHOULD BE AS DETAILED AS IT NEEDS TO BE IN ORDER TO GET THEIR, THEIR QUESTIONS ANSWERED.
AND THEY COULD TAKE AS LONG AS THEY NEED PART OF THAT, IT'S ALL ONES ONE MEETING AT THAT POINT.
THAT RECOMMENDATION THEN, I DON'T KNOW, WE NEED TO TAKE A VOTE OR ANYTHING ON THAT, BUT I'M HAPPY TO RECORD.
HAPPY TO REPORT IT TO COUNSEL THEN.
THEN AT 4 3 3 LAST TIME ADJOURN IS ADJOURNED.