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AHEAD AND CALL TO ORDER THE MEETING OF THE CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.TODAY IS, UM, FEBRUARY THE 24TH, AND WE'RE AT THE CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION MEETING OF THE CITY OF GARLAND.
UM, AND SINCE WE'VE CALLED THE MEETING TO ORDER, WE'LL, UH, CONSIDER ITEM NUMBER TWO, WHICH IS TO ADOPT THE AGENDA.
DO I HAVE A MOTION? I MOVE THAT WE ADOPT THE AGENDA.
SO THAT AGENDA IS APPROVED AND, UM, ITEM NUMBER THREE IS TO CONSIDER APPROVAL OF MINUTES FROM THE COMMISSION MEETING HELD ON DECEMBER THE 14TH.
I MOVE THAT WE APPROVE THOSE MINUTES.
HAS EVERYONE HAD A CHANCE TO REVIEW THEM? I HAVE SECOND.
OKAY, SO THE ME THE MINUTES ARE APPROVED FROM THE MEETING OF DECEMBER THE 14TH, 2022.
ITEM NUMBER FOUR IS TO REVIEW THE MONTHLY REPORTS OF THE FIRE DEPARTMENT.
UH, AS YOU CAN SEE ON OUR REPORTS, THE RESPONSE TIMES ARE REMAINING PRETTY CONSTANT.
UH, FIRES WERE SIGNIFICANTLY UP IN JANUARY, UH, WITH 20 OF THE 71 BEING STRUCTURE FIRES.
UH, EMS CALLS WERE ALSO UP SLIGHTLY.
UM, AND, UH, THE NUMBER OF PATIENTS TRANSPORTED IS REMAINING PRETTY CONSTANT.
UM, AND INSPECTIONS ARE KIND OF GETTING BACK ON TRACK.
CHIEF, REGARDING THE FIRES NEARLY DOUBLING, IN FACT MORE THAN DOUBLING.
DO YOU, UM, IS IT JUST THE LUCK OF THE DRAW OR JUST THE WAY THINGS ARE? PRETTY MUCH, IT'S, UH, YOU, YOU SEE THEN IN APRIL OF 22 WE HAD 72 FIRES WITH 13 OF THOSE BEING STRUCTURED FIRES.
SO OUR STRUCTURE FIRES TEND TO RUN 10 TO 20 PER MONTH.
UH, FIRE GENERAL FIRES FROM GRASS FIRES, DUMPSTER FIRES TO HOUSE FIRES AND APARTMENT FIRES WILL RUN, UH, THAT, THAT LOW FORTIES TO UP TO ABOUT 80.
UH, I HAD ONE OTHER QUESTION ABOUT THAT.
WHEN YOU ARE CALLED TO PROVIDE LIKE SHIELDING, LIKE SOME FIRE DEPARTMENTS OR THEY'LL BRING OUT THEIR FIRE ENGINES AND FOR SOME REASON THEY'RE, THEY'RE MAKING SURE THAT CONSTRUCTION OR WHATEVER IS SAFE.
DO YOU GUYS DO THAT HERE? WE DO NOT.
UH, AS FAR AS BLOCKING WILL BLOCK FOR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND FIRE DEPARTMENT ON THE SCENES OF, UH, FREEWAY ACCIDENTS, BUT YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I WAS, OBJECTION WISE, WE DON'T PROVIDE ANYTHING.
IS THAT IN THIS LIST SOMEWHERE IN HERE? NO, SIR.
I WAS JUST WONDERING HOW MUCH THAT WAS IN TERMS OF TIME AND EFFORT.
ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS ABOUT THE MONTHLY REPORT FOR THE FIRE DEPARTMENT? NO.
ALRIGHT, THEN WE WILL MOVE ON TO ITEM FIVE, WHICH IS TO REVIEW LETTERS OF APPRECIATION AND COMMENDATIONS RECEIVED BY THE FIRE DEPARTMENT.
AND I, IT SAYS THERE'S AN ATTACH, IS THERE AN ATTACHMENT? OURS THE ATTACHMENT, THEY'RE ONLY IN BOX.
ANYTHING THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT CHIEF? NO, MA'AM.
IF THERE'S ANY QUESTIONS ON ANY OF THEM, I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS.
ANY OUTSTANDING LETTERS THAT YOU WANNA MENTION OR SOMETHING VERY SPECIAL? OUR LETTERS, UM, ARE NOT AS REFLECTIVE AS MY, MY DARK SHADE OF BLUE NUMBER HERE,
UM, WE, THE ONLY THING WE'RE SENDING TO THE COMMISSION RIGHT NOW IS THE, THE LETTERS THAT WE RECEIVE OF APPRECIATION FROM.
UH, OCCASIONALLY IT'S A SERVICE RELATED, SOMEBODY STOPPED AND UM, HELPED A MOTORIST AND, AND DISTRESS, WHICH IS SOMETHING THEY DO EVERY DAY.
BUT, UM, IT'S THOSE LITTLE THINGS THAT PEOPLE TAKE THE TIME TO, TO PIN IT OR EMAIL IT TO US.
WE FORWARD THAT ON TO THE COMMISSION, BUT, UH, OUR, OUR GUYS ARE OUT THERE DOING OUTSTANDING WORK EVERY DAY AND, UH, THEY JUST DO IT SILENTLY IN MOST CASES.
ITEM NUMBER SIX IS TO REVIEW THE MONTHLY REPORTS OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
WELL, KINDA LIKE THE FIRE DEPARTMENT, WE'RE KIND OF ON PACE WITH WHAT WE EXPECTED.
UH, YOU CAN SEE A 6.4% DECREASE IN CALLS FOR SERVICE, WHICH IS NOTABLE.
UH, WE ARE ALSO CALLS FOR SERVICE ARE GENERATED BOTH BY PEOPLE CALLING THE POLICE
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AND BY OFFICERS SELF-GENERATING.AND SO TRAFFIC STOPS, UH, PEDESTRIAN STOPS, UM, CONTACTS, STUFF LIKE THAT.
AND WE'RE DOWN 21 OFFICERS, I THINK, UH, ACTUALLY GOT A RETIREMENT LETTER YESTERDAY.
AND SO YOU'RE SEEING THAT REFLECTED IN SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS? THE NUMBERS ARE SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT IN SOME AREAS, YEAH, IN SOME AREAS.
UH, SOME AREAS THERE'S SMALL DIFFERENCE.
IN SOME AREAS THEY'RE LARGER DIFFERENCE FOR MOVING AND NON-MOVING CITATIONS.
CITATIONS, UM, CITATIONS ARE PRIMARILY GENERATED BY OUR TRAFFIC UNIT.
OUR TRAFFIC UNIT PROBABLY WRITES 85% OF OUR CITATIONS.
SO DO YOU THINK THAT'S BECAUSE SOME OF IT, BECAUSE OF A LACK OF OFFICERS? YES.
THAT'S, WE'RE RUNNING SHORT IN EVERY UNIT, SO, SO WHEN YOU'RE RUNNING SHORT IN THE TRAFFIC UNIT, YOU'RE, YOU'RE, YOU CAN REALLY SEE THAT IN OUR CITATIONS.
APPRECIATE WHAT YOU GUYS GUYS DO AND EFFORT AS A LEADER THAT YOU TAKE TO, TO DO AS MUCH YOU CAN WITH SUCH SHORTCOMINGS OF LACK OF OFFICERS.
SO
ANY OTHER COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS? NO.
SO WE WILL MOVE ON TO ITEM NUMBER SEVEN, WHICH IS TO REVIEW THE LETTERS OF APPRECIATION AND COMMENDATIONS RECEIVED BY THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
I WAS GONNA POINT OUT THERE'S MANY MORE THAN THE FIRE DEPARTMENT,
THERE'S HUNDREDS FOR POLICE AND THREE FOR FIRE, BUT THEY'RE VERY IMPRESSIVE.
IS THERE ANY ONE THAT STICKS OUT THAT YOU'D LIKE TO POINT OUT? I DON'T REMEMBER IF THIS ONE'S IN THERE OR NOT, BUT, UH, IF IT'S MADE IT TO THE, THE COMMISSION OR NOT, BUT THE, UH, THE WEEKS OF THE EYE STORM, I MEAN, EVERYONE'S AT HOME.
UH, THE FIRE DEPARTMENT AND THE POLICE DEPARTMENT ARE WORKING ON THE STREETS IN EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS CONDITIONS.
AND IT'S MORE, IT'S, IT CHANGES YOUR JOB A LITTLE BIT TO, UM, HELPING PEOPLE STUCK IN, IN TOUGH SITUATIONS VERSUS OUR TYPICAL RESPONDING TO CALLS.
SO, UH, BUT POLICE AND FIRE WERE BOTH OUT THERE THROUGH THAT, THAT WINTER STORM, AND IT'S AN ADVENTURE, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S DIFFERENT.
UM, BUT THE TROOPS DID A GREAT JOB.
I THINK, UH, AT LEAST FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, YOU SHOULD CONVEY IF YOU CAN, OUR GRATITUDE AS A CITIZENS, BECAUSE I'VE SEEN THAT OUT THERE, EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, WHERE THE POLICE ARE THERE AND NOBODY ELSE REALLY.
CAN I JUST ADD, AND I KNOW I WAS BEING JOKE, I WAS JOKING, BUT FOR POLICE, THEY DO SEND OVER ALL OF THEIR, UH, CERTIFICATIONS.
SO ANY CERTIFICATES THAT THE OFFICERS HAVE RECEIVED FOR FIRE, THE INFORMATION THAT WE RECEIVE, UH, ARE NORMALLY KUDOS FOR EMPLOYEES THAT HAVE GONE ABOVE AND BEYOND.
SO A COUPLE OF THE EXAMPLES, UH, INCLUDED THEM ASSISTING, UH, WITH, UM, A VERY, YOU KNOW, LARGE PATIENT THAT ACTUALLY THEY WERE NOT AT THE HOSPITAL TO SUPPORT, BUT THEY, UM, WENT IN AND HELPED.
THEY ALSO HELPED AN ELDERLY GENTLEMAN WHO HIS, UH, SPOUSE, YOU KNOW, WROTE A VERY TOUCHING LETTER ABOUT THE HELP THAT THEY PROVIDED, UH, AS WELL AS HELPING SOMEONE WHO HAD STOPPED ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD, UM, BY TAKING HER ALL THE WAY TO GET HER CAR SERVICED AND ALL OF THAT.
SO REALLY GOING ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT THEY WOULD TYPICALLY DO.
SO, UM, SOME OF THE INFORMATION, BECAUSE IT DOES INCLUDE NAMES OF, YOU KNOW, PATIENTS OR NAMES OF, UH, PEOPLE INVOLVED IN, UM, RESPONSES, WE PUT THEM IN BOX FOR CONFIDENTIALITY.
UM, BUT IF, IF IT WOULD BE HELPFUL, WE CAN DEFINITELY START TO INCLUDE THOSE AS HARD COPY FOR REFERENCE DURING THE MEETING.
KIM, I, I THINK IF YOU HAVE THE, THE, WHATEVER THE CHIEFS WOULD DECIDE WOULD BE THE MOST SIGNIFICANT ONES, THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING BECAUSE WE VALUE WHAT YOU GUYS THINK AND, AND WHAT YOU FEEL SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED.
IT'S, UH, THAT'S WHAT I WOULD THINK.
AND ALL OF THOSE ARE AVAILABLE ON THAT LINK? CORRECT.
SO ITEM NUMBER EIGHT IS TO CONSIDER APPROVAL OF THE ELIGIBILITY LIST FROM THE POLICE ENTRANCE EXAMINATION CONDUCTED ON JANUARY THE 21ST, 2023.
I MOVE THAT WE APPROVE THAT LIST ELIGIBILITY LIST.
WERE THERE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT IT? 35? WAS THAT IT? YES.
I JUST FEEL AGAIN THAT GOSH, SHOULD HAVE, UM, MANY, MANY MORE.
I THINK, UH, COMPARED TO THE FIRE DEPARTMENT, I'VE SEEN THE FIRE DEPARTMENT LIST, THERE'S CERTAINLY
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MORE.AND SO, UH, AGAIN, I, I SURE WISH THINGS WOULD CHANGE ME TOO.
I WILL SAY THE NUMBERS ARE UP.
SO FOR THAT PARTICULAR EXAM, THERE WERE MORE TEST TAKERS, BUT THOSE ARE ONLY, UH, THE EXAMINEES THAT PASSED MM-HMM
I THINK WE HAD 67 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT FOR THAT EXAM.
SO WE ARE SEEING THE NUMBERS INCREASE, BUT UH, THE PASS RATE IS STILL NOT, UM, YOU KNOW, AS, AS GOOD AS WE WOULD LIKE.
WE'RE ALSO SEEING THE NUMBER OF TESTS INCREASE.
SO IT USED TO, WE MAY DO ONE OR TWO TESTS A YEAR, MAYBE THREE TESTS.
NOW WE'RE DOING SIX, SEVEN TESTS A YEAR.
AND CHIEF, DO THE FOLKS THAT ARE POLICE OFFICERS AT ANOTHER CITY, DO THEY, ARE THEY REQUIRED TO TAKE THE TEST TOO? YES.
SO THEY HAVE TO TAKE THE CIVIL SERVICE EXAM AS WELL.
SO, UH, THIS DOESN'T SHOW IF THEY WERE PREVIOUS OFFICERS IN ANY WAY, RIGHT? OR WOULD YOU JUST KNOW THAT THIS ONE, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, IS ONLY LATERAL OFFICERS? OKAY.
THIS, SO WE HAVE A TEST THAT IS JUST FOR LATERALS AND A TEST THAT'S OPEN FOR EVERYONE.
SO, I'M SORRY, THIS IS THE ONE THAT'S BOTH LATERALS AND, AND NON LATERALS.
THANK YOU FOR CLARIFYING THAT.
AND JUST OUTTA CURIOSITY, SO ONCE THIS EXAM, THEY, THE CANDIDATES HAVE TAKEN THIS EXAM AND PASSED IT.
LIKE, IS THIS LIKE THE VERY INITIAL STEP AND THEN THERE'S OBVIOUSLY OTHER STEPS AFTER THIS? THIS IS THE INITIAL STEP.
UH, THEN THERE'S A PHYSICAL AGILITY, UH, THERE'S A, UH, ORAL BOARD, THERE'S A PSYCHOLOGICAL EXAM, THERE'S A POLYGRAPH, THERE'S A BACKGROUND.
UH, IT'S, THIS IS JUST STEP ONE.
THIS IS JUST STEP IT, THE, THE TO FROM STEP ONE TO ACTUALLY STARTING THE ACADEMY IS ABOUT SIX MONTHS.
AND, AND IS THERE A TYPICAL, UM, NARROWING OF THIS NUMBER DURING THAT SIX MONTH PROCESS? UNFORTUNATELY, YES.
I MEAN, IS IT, IS THERE A STANDARD NUMBER THAT YOU HAVE FOR A QUARTER OR WE CAN EXPECT ABOUT ONE OUT OF 10 APPLICANTS.
UM, MAYBE ONE OUTTA SEVEN PEOPLE THAT PASS THE EXAM.
SO IF WE'VE GOT 35 HERE, WE CAN EXPECT TO GET FOUR OR FIVE START THE ACADEMY.
WE DO HAVE A PATHWAY TO EMPLOYMENT THAT SHOWS EACH OF THE REQUIRED STEPS FOR POLICE AND FIRE.
SO WE CAN, UH, SEND THAT TO THE COMMISSIONERS JUST SO YOU HAVE IT FOR REFERENCE AS WELL.
DID WE APPROVE IT? SHOULD WE, YEAH, LET'S I MOVE THAT WE APPROVE THE ELIGIBILITY LIST.
SO ITEM NUMBER EIGHT IS APPROVED.
ITEM NUMBER NINE IS TO CONSIDER ANY PENDING POLICE CAPTAIN PROMOTIONAL EXAMINATION APPEALS FROM THE EXAMINATION CONDUCTED ON FEBRUARY THE 14TH, 2 23.
I ASSUME THAT WE'RE GONNA HAVE SOME SPEAKERS.
IS THERE ANYONE THAT WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK ON, ON THIS ITEM? I, MY VOICE OFF? IT'S RIGHT, ME
UM, DO I NEED TO COME UP HERE? YES, YOU CAN.
AND IF YOU WOULD STATE YOUR NAME.
AND I'M READY IF I'M YES, GO AHEAD.
SO THE FIRST QUESTION THAT I WANT TO ADDRESS TODAY IS, UH, QUESTION NUMBER 24.
AND I BELIEVE YOU HAVE THAT IN YOUR PACKET ALSO MM-HMM
SO THAT YOU CAN GET THE LANGUAGE ON IT.
AND THE, THE QUESTION READS, WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING IS A COMMON SYMPTOM RESULTING FROM MICROMANAGEMENT? WELL, IF YOU LOOK ON IN THE BOOK, THANK YOU.
UH, IF YOU LOOK IN THE BOOK ON PAGE 50, YOU'LL SEE TOWARD THE BOTTOM WHERE IT STARTS RIGHT BEFORE A BULLETED SECTION.
AND IT READS, HERE ARE THE COMMON SYMPTOMS OF MICROMANAGEMENT.
AND THE KEY TO ANSWER HERE IS THE TEAM LACKS CREATIVITY.
AND IF YOU JUMP DOWN TO NUMBER FIVE, YOU CAN SEE THAT IS ACTUALLY A CORRECT ANSWER.
IT SAYS CREATIVITY GRINDS TO A HALT.
BUT IF YOU GO TO THE NEXT ONE, YOU'LL SEE THAT IT SAYS THAT THE TEAM STAYS IN THEIR OWN SILO NOT STEPPING OUT TO COORDINATE EFFORTS.
WHICH IS A VERY IMPORTANT WORD.
UM, AND THE AUTHOR WILL FURTHER CLARIFY THIS IN JUST A SECOND.
SO WHAT YOU'LL FIND WHEN YOU READ THIS IS ON THIS PAGE AND ON THE SECOND PAGE WHERE THEY OFFER ANOTHER LIST FOR THE OPPOSITE.
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IN HERE, THIS ENTIRE BOOK IS ABOUT DICHOTOMIES.AND THIS PARTICULAR ONE IS A DICHOTOMY OF THE USE OF AUTHORITY.
SO TOO MUCH AUTHORITY, I HAVE MICROMANAGEMENT TOO, LITTLE AUTHORITY, I HAVE HANDS OFF LEADERSHIP.
AND IF I GO TOO FAR IN EITHER EXTREME, I'M GONNA SEE SOME OF THESE SYMPTOMS AND WHAT THEY'VE SAID ON PAGE 51, HE STARTS LISTING, LISTING THE SYMPTOMS OF THE EXTREME.
BUT THEN, SO FAILURE TO COORDINATE IS ONE OF THOSE.
AND THEN, BUT THEN IN THE EXPLANATION OF THAT, HE SPECIFICALLY STATES, UM, WHILE A MICROMANAGED TEAM MIGHT NOT COORDINATE WITH OTHER TEAMS, BECAUSE IT DOES NOT WANT TO OVERSTEP BOUNDS, A TEAM WITHOUT GOOD GUIDANCE ALSO FAIL TO COORDINATE.
LET ME AGAIN POINT OUT ANOTHER IMPORTANT WORD.
IT SAYS MIGHT, THAT'S TRUE, IT'S NOT, UH, DEFINITIVE, BUT IT COULD BE A SYMPTOM.
YES, IT IS, BUT IT'S NOT DEFINITIVE AS IS GRINDS TO A HALT, WHICH IS VERY CLEAR.
SO I'M JUST POINTING OUT AS A TEST BUILDER THAT IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT IN NUMBER FIVE ON PAGE 50, IT IS VERY SPECIFIC THAT CREATIVITY IS DEFINITIVE.
I'M JUST SHARING WITH YOU WHAT I SEE UNDERSTOOD.
UM, I, I PERSONALLY SEE A LIST OF SEVEN SYMPTOMS, AND I DON'T SEE ANY WAITING BY THE AUTHOR IN SYMPTOMS. AND THE FACT THAT THEY MAY OCCUR, THE WHOLE QUESTION IS, UH, TO USE YOUR WORD MIGHT, UM, WHICH OF THESE MIGHT I SEE, WHICH ARE COMMON SYMPTOMS. UM, AND SO, SO IN MY VIEW, OKAY, IF SOMETHING IS VERY CLEAR, IT'S DEFINITIVE, IF IT'S NEBULOUS WAYS, COULD BE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.
THE BEST ANSWER CLEARLY FROM PAGE 50, AND IN REFERENCE TO THE PUBLIC OFFICER EMPLOYEE'S HANDBOOK WHERE IT SAYS THAT REGARDING THE TEST EXAMINATION QUESTIONS MUST BE TAKEN FROM THE SOURCES POSTED.
SO IT'S ONLY FROM THIS SOURCE RIGHT NOW FOR THIS PARTICULAR QUESTION, IT IS CLEAR.
AND YOU, I THINK YOU WOULD AGREE THAT THAT CREATIVITY MUST BE CONSIDERED RIGHT? THAT HAS TO BE ONE OF THE POSSIBILITIES FOR SURE, RIGHT? YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THAT? THAT TRUE? SURE.
SO THEN IF WE AGREE THAT THAT'S FOR SURE ONE OF THEM, THE, THE OTHER ONES, IF YOU LOOK AT THE, UM, ADJECTIVES OR DESCRIPTIVES OF IT ARE NOT A HUNDRED PERCENT, IT SAYS MAY, COULD BE.
SO FROM MY VIEWPOINT, THIS IS A, WHAT WE CALL A DISCRI, A DISCRIMINATOR QUESTION.
IT DISCRIMINATES FROM THE VERY, VERY BEST, I'M JUST SHARING AS A TEST BUILDER FROM THOSE THAT ARE REALLY, REALLY GOOD.
BUT, SO THIS ONE FOR ME, AND I'M JUST SPEAKING MYSELF, IS CLEARLY ONLY THE ANSWER THAT IS GIVEN THE CORRECT ONE.
SO IF I CAN TAKE YOU BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF THAT LIST.
HERE ARE THE COMMON SYMPTOMS. YES.
AND THEN IT LISTS SEVEN SYMPTOMS. IT DOESN'T LAY ANY WEIGHT TO EACH OF THESE THAT, THAT THE WORDS DO, THE WORDS DO.
BUT I WAS ONLY ASKED TO IDENTIFY SYMPTOMS. UM, UM, BUT PURE SYMPTOMS IS WHAT I WOULD SEE.
I DIDN'T SAY THE WORD PURE, BUT THAT'S, THAT'S HOW I SEE IT.
THAT'S AN OBJECTIVE CONCLUSION THAT YOU'RE REQUIRING ME TO MAKE BASED ON SOMETHING NOT PROVIDED IN THE TEST QUESTION.
WELL, THE ANSWER SAYS PURELY NO, CREATIVITY SAYS NO VISION.
SO IF IT'S NO VISION, THEN THERE WOULD BE JUST THIS, THIS ONE SAYS THE TEAM FAILS TO COORDINATE, BUT I'M GOING BY THE POSSIBLE SELECTION OF ANSWERS.
RIGHT? SO LOOK AT THE, ARE YOU ON THIS PAGE OR ARE YOU ON MY APPEAL? UH, I'M LOOKING AT THE BOOK.
THE, BUT I'M LOOKING BASING IT OFF THE TEST QUESTION THAT I WAS GIVEN.
AND THE TEST QUESTION THAT I WAS GIVEN SAYS, WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING IS A COMPETENT SYMPTOM, AND WHAT ARE THE CHOICES THE TEAM LACKS CREATIVITY AND THE TEAM FAILS TO COORDINATE.
SO MY CHOICES SAY NO VISION, NO CREATIVITY, NO COORDINATION.
SO WHAT YOU'RE READING IS WHAT I WROTE AS IN MY RECOLLECTION OF WHAT THE TEST WAS.
AND THAT'S NOT WHAT THE, THE TEST QUESTION WAS MY RECOLLECT, I COULDN'T WRITE ANYTHING DOWN.
I HAD TO TRY TO MEMORIZE THE QUESTION, WALK OUTTA THE ROOM, AND THEN CRAFT IT, IT THE BEST I COULD.
SO I APOLOGIZE THAT CONFUSION IS MY FAULT.
DO WE HAVE THE ACTUAL QUESTION? YOU DO.
AND IT'S, IT'S, IT'S ON YOUR APPEAL FORM.
BUT AGAIN, IT, IT IT, THE WORD LAX MEANS ABSENT.
B I'M ARGUING YOU HAVE THREE REASONS FOR WHICH YOU CAN UPHOLD THE PILL.
AND ONE OF THOSE IS THAT THERE'S AN EQUALLY VALID ANSWER AND THE TEAM FAILS TO COORDINATE IS CLEARLY LISTED HERE AS A SYMPTOM.
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LACKS, THAT'S THE WORD, DOES NOT MEAN TO ME THAT IT IS PURE THAT IT IS, IT SAYS, IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE SAYING B'S NOT CORRECT.NO, B IS CLEARLY CORRECT BECAUSE IT LACKS, IT HAS NONE.
IT SAYS SO IN THE BOOK GRINDS TO THAT, IT GRINDS TO A HALT.
THAT MEANS IT LACKS TOTALLY A HUNDRED PERCENT.
AND THE OTHER ONES DO NOT SAY THAT.
SO I MISSED IT ON THE WORD LAX.
THAT'S, THAT'S HOW I'M GOING TO VOTE.
UH, AND, AND I'M LOOKING AT IT FROM, I UNDERSTAND YOU JUST GOT THE BOOK TODAY AND WE'VE NO, NO SIR, BURIED OUR LIVES IN THIS BOOK, SIR.
I CAN GUARANTEE YOU I'VE WORKED ON THIS LAST NIGHT FOR MANY, MANY HOURS.
'CAUSE I WAS, I WAS CONCERNED FOR YOU, IN FACT, SO MUCH SO THAT I SPOKE WITH THE CHIEF OF POLICE TO MAKE SURE I WAS CLEAR IN MY THINKING.
AND I THINK THAT, UH, THE WORD HERE LACKS MEANS A HUNDRED PERCENT BASED ON TEST BUILDING.
AND I WOULD THINK THAT YOU'RE NOT RIGHT.
'CAUSE THE OTHER ONES DO NOT COMPLETELY ELIMINATE IT.
ARE THERE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FROM THE COMMISSIONERS? NO.
DO WE HAVE ANY OTHER OFFICERS WILLING OFFERING TO SPEAK ON THIS? WE GONNA SPEAK ON THIS QUESTION BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO THE NEXT QUESTION? YES.
I, I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK, PLEASE.
AND ALSO THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU DO IS A POLICE PERSON.
AND I STILL LIKE THAT TIE
I I REALLY APPRECIATE Y'ALL'S TIME AND
THIS IS, AS Y'ALL KNOW, VERY IMPORTANT FOR US.
AND, UH, WE'VE, WE'VE ALL WORKED VERY HARD TO, TO GET TO THIS POINT.
AND, AND OFFICER, WHAT WAS YOUR NAME, SIR? I'M SORRY.
MY NAME IS CHRIS TRUSTEE AND YOU SCORED THE TOP RIGHT? YES, SIR.
SO I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION AND I BELIEVE I'M ASKING THAT Y'ALL UPHOLD IT AS IT IS.
UM, I BELIEVE THAT B IS THE MOST CORRECT ANSWER.
UM, I KNOW THAT Y'ALL HAVE THE, THE CIVIL SERVICE RULES.
I'M NOT SURE IF Y'ALL SEE IF Y'ALL HAVE EVER SEEN THE RULES IN THE FRONT OF THE TEST THAT WE GET.
UM, BUT THERE'S INSTRUCTIONS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TEST THAT THAT KIND OF COVER HOW YOU KNOW HOW TO TAKE THE EXAM.
AND, UH, ONE OF THE, UH, RULES AND, AND I, I CAN'T, I, I WASN'T ABLE TO MEMORIZE IT, BUT IN ESSENCE, IT SAYS ON ANY QUESTION, THERE MAY BE MORE THAN ONE ANSWER THAT HAS SOME LEVEL, SOME GENERAL LEVEL OF CORRECTNESS.
BUT THE MOST CORRECT ANSWER IS THE RIGHT ANSWER.
AND I BELIEVE THAT, THAT THIS, UH, GARY, YOU KNOW, STATED TO Y'ALL WHAT THIS CHAPTER WAS ALL ABOUT.
IT WAS CONTRASTING THE, THE DIFFERENT LEADERSHIP STYLES OF, UH, A MICROMANAGER AND A, A HANDS OFF LEADER.
AND, UH, I KNEW THAT THERE WAS GONNA BE A TEST QUESTION ON THIS BECAUSE WHEN YOU GO TO PAGES 50 AND 51, I MEAN, HE, HE BASICALLY SUMMARIZES THE WHOLE CHAPTER IN THESE BULLET POINT, UM, UH, SYMPTOMS. AND SO, UH, I, UH, I I I MADE SURE I KNEW BOTH THESE PAGES,
IF YOU LOOK AT THE, THE LIST UNDER PAGE 51, WHICH IS ONE OF THE PAGES CITED ON THE TEST QUESTION, LACKS COORDINATION, FAILS TO COORDINATE.
AND, AND I UNDERSTAND THAT, UH, Y'ALL DISCUSSED SOME OF THE CROSSTALK EARLIER ABOUT HOW IT MAY SHOW UP ON THE, ON THE OTHER STYLE, BUT THE AUTHOR PUT IT UNDER THIS LIST FOR A REASON THAT, UM, THE TEAM FAILS TO COORDINATE.
HE, HE PUT IT UNDER THIS LIST.
SO I THINK EVERYBODY ALREADY AGREED THAT B IS CLEARLY A CORRECT ANSWER.
I BELIEVE IT'S THE ONLY CORRECT ANSWER.
UM, I DO NOT BELIEVE, OBVIOUSLY A, UM, IS NOT A CORRECT ANSWER AND I DON'T BELIEVE THAT, UH, C IS AN EQUAL ANSWER.
UM, IF IT WAS, IT WOULD BE UNDER THE LIST FOR MICROMANAGEMENT.
IT'S UNDER THE HANDS OFF LEADER.
UM, I, I THINK THAT THE BEST WAY THAT, THAT I WOULD LOOK AT IT IF I WAS TRYING TO DECIDE IS I
[00:25:01]
WOULD, I WOULD TURN THE QUESTION AROUND AND IF THIS WAS AN OPEN BOOK TEST AND IF, IF I WAS TO GET A QUESTION OF WHICH LEADERSHIP STYLE, WHICH TEAM DOES FAILURE TO COORDINATE FALL UNDER, I WOULD LOOK AT THESE TWO LISTS ON THESE PAGES AND SEE THAT IT CLEARLY FALLS UNDER A HANDS OFF LEADERSHIP STYLE.IT DOESN'T FALL UNDER, WHICH IS ON PAGE 51, RIGHT, WHICH IS ON PAGE 51 AND IT'S CITED BY THE TEST.
AGAIN, I REALLY APPRECIATE Y'ALL'S Y'ALL'S HEARING WHAT I HAVE TO SAY.
IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, I'LL BE HAPPY TO ANSWER 'EM.
YOU SEE WHAT HE'S SAYING THERE? THERE'S TWO LISTS.
HIS, I DON'T REALLY THINK EACH OTHER WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO IT OPEN.
SO IF YOU WOULD STATE YOUR NAME PLEASE.
I'M ALSO ARGUING THE QUESTION STARTS A LITTLE LOUDER.
24 SHOULD STAY AS IT IS WITH B IS THE CORRECT ANSWER WITHOUT GOING TOO DEEPLY INTO IT.
I TAKE IT AS YOU HAVE THE TEST AND YOU HAVE THE SOURCES, WE CAN'T ADD OR SUBTRACT WORDS.
IT MENTIONS, THE TEAM FAILS TO COORDINATE YOUR ONLY WORDS, CHOICE C THAT MATTER THIS OR TEAM AND COORDINATE.
SO YOU HAVE TO ASSUME IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE TEAM COORDINATING WITH ITSELF ITS OWN MEMBERS.
IF WE LOOK ON PAGE 51 WHERE IT MENTIONS FAILURE TO COORDINATE, IT ACTUALLY DOES IT IN TWO PLACES UNDER THE SYMPTOMS OF A HANDS-OFF LEADER, NOT MICROMANAGED.
AND IT TALKS ABOUT LACK OF COORDINATION BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS.
THEREFORE IT FALLS CLEARLY UNDER HANDS-OFF WHERE THIS QUESTION IS REFERRING TO THE MICROMANAGED TEAM.
THE MICROMANAGED TEAM IN BULLET 0.6 UNDER THE COMMON SYMPTOMS STARTS WITH THE TEAM TENDS TO STAY INSIDE THEIR OWN SILO, MEANING THEY STAY TOGETHER NOT STEPPING OUT TO COORDINATE EFFORTS WITH OTHER DEPARTMENTS OR DIVISIONS.
THE ONLY WAY THAT YOU COULD SAY THAT C IS AN EQUAL ANSWER TO B IS IF IT WERE TALKING TO OTHER DEPARTMENTS OR DIVISIONS.
THAT'S NOWHERE IN THE QUESTION.
THE QUESTION MENTIONS THE TEAM COORDINATING.
WE HAVE TO ASSUME BY GRAMMATICAL CONSTRUCTION THAT THAT MEANS THE TEAM COORDINATING WITH ITSELF NOT OTHERS, WHICH WOULD MAKE B LACK OF CREATIVITY.
THE ONLY ANSWER THAT WOULD BE A COMMON SYMPTOM OF MICROMANAGEMENT, THE FAILURE TO COORDINATE MENTIONED TWICE UNDER THE HANDS OFF LEADERSHIP PROBLEM TALKS ABOUT ON NUMBER TWO, LACK OF COORDINATION BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS ON THE TEAM AND EFFORTS THAT OFTEN COMPETE OR INTERFERE WITH EACH OTHER.
JUST BY WHAT IS ON THE BOOK AND WHAT IS IN THE QUESTION.
I TAKE FAILURE TO COORDINATE AS A SYMPTOM OF HANDS-OFF BECAUSE IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE INDIVIDUALS ON THE TEAM.
THE QUESTION DOESN'T MENTION OTHER DIVISIONS OR DEPARTMENTS.
SO I, FROM THE PLAIN LANGUAGE OF THE QUESTION AND WHAT WE HAVE IN THE BOOK, I DON'T SEE HOW THERE'S ANY WAY THAT C COULD BE AN EQUAL ANSWER TO BE.
I WOULD ACTUALLY ARGUE THAT IT'S NOT CORRECT AT ALL BECAUSE IT'S A SYMPTOM OF HANDS OFF.
SO, SO LET ME ASK YOU THEN, BASED ON YOUR READING OF THIS MATERIAL AND THE BOOK IN FRONT OF YOU, THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT MANAGEMENT CONCERNS.
ONE IS MICROMANAGEMENT AND ONE IS HANDS OFF, WHICH ARE CLEARLY DIFFERENT IN YOUR MIND.
IS THAT CORRECT? CORRECTION? THE CORRECT, THE ENTIRE BOOK IS ABOUT THE DICHOTOMY OF TWO SUB CELL.
ONE CLEARLY FALLS IN THE MICROMANAGED CATEGORY.
THE OTHER FALLS CLEARLY IN THE HANDS OFF, WHICH IS NOT BEING ASKED IN THIS QUESTION.
SO I JUST DON'T SEE HOW, GIVEN THE SOURCES AND THE QUESTION THAT C COULD BE AN EQUAL ANSWER TO BE, I WOULD ACTUALLY ARGUE THAT IT'S NOT CORRECT BECAUSE IT IS REFERRING TO COORDINATING WITHIN THE TEAM UNLESS THEY MENTION OTHERWISE.
YOU HAVE ANY, I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY.
IF YOU DON'T NEED ME FOR ANYTHING, I'M, I DON'T, NO, NO, NO MORE QUESTIONS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH I APPRECIATE.
AND THEN AGAIN, I APPRECIATE ALL THAT YOU DO.
DO WE HAVE ANY OTHER SPEAKERS ON THIS ITEM OR ON THIS QUESTION? QUESTION NUMBER 24.
I MAKE A MOTION THAT, UH, B IS THE CORRECT ANSWER AND
[00:30:01]
WE UPHOLD THE EXAM, UM, BASED ON THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED BASED ON THE, THE BOOK ITSELF AND BASED ON THE STATUTE.DO WE HAVE A SECOND? I SECOND.
OKAY, SO, UM, WE SUSTAINED THE, UM, THE APPEAL, I'M SORRY.
NO, WE'RE IN FAVOR OF, OF UPHOLDING THE EXAM QUESTION.
WE'RE WE, UM, VOTED IN FAVOR OF UPHOLDING THE EXAM QUESTION AND ANSWER AS ORIGINALLY SCORED? RIGHT.
AND, AND I WOULD JUST SAY ALSO, GARY, ARE YOU THERE STILL? YES, SIR.
I APPRECIATE YOU BRINGING THESE THINGS TO OUR ATTENTION.
THAT KEEPS US MAKING SURE THAT OUR TESTS ARE GOOD AND, UH, DON'T WANT YOU TO FEEL LIKE, UM, ALL THIS EFFORT WAS IN VAIN 'CAUSE WE LEARNED TOO.
BUT UM, AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR JUST BEING HERE AND DOING THAT.
UM, IS THE QUESTION, UH, REGARDING, UM, NOT REGARDING THIS ONE.
THE NEXT QUESTION, THE NEXT APPEAL? YEAH, IT'S THE NEXT APPEAL QUESTION.
I GUESS YOU WANNA COME UP
SO YEAH, SO, UH, WE'RE GONNA MOVE ON TO THE SECOND QUESTION, WHICH IS, UH, QUESTION NUMBER 69 THAT'S BEING APPEALED.
SO YES, GO AHEAD MR. CUMMINGS.
AND AGAIN, I'M REFERRING TO THE, THE SHEET THAT HAS THE TEST QUESTIONS ON IT AND NOT WHAT I TURNED IN BECAUSE THAT WAS BASED ON MEMORY MM-HMM
SO THIS BOOK HERE IS OBVIOUSLY ABOUT CASE LAW AND WHAT THE, THE AUTHOR DOES IS THEY PRETTY MUCH GO THROUGH, UM, COURT CASES, OVER 450 COURT CASES, ALMOST ONE PA ONE COURT CASE PER PAGE.
AND THEY START OUT, THEY TELLING YOU WHAT A SEARCH IS, THEY THEN THEY TELL YOU WHAT A SEIZURE IS, AND THEN THEY TALK ABOUT THE REQUIREMENTS FOR A WARRANT, AND FINALLY THEY GET TO EXCEPTIONS TO WARRANTS.
AND ONE OF THOSE EXCEPTIONS IS A SEARCH INCIDENT TO ARREST.
AND THEN SPECIFIC TO THIS QUESTION ARE SEARCH INCIDENTS TO ARREST ON A VEHICLE.
AND THERE ARE FIVE CASES IN THE BOOK THAT DEAL WITH A SEARCH INCIDENT TO ARREST A VEHICLE.
UM, IT APPEARS THAT THEY DREW THE QUESTION FROM ONE OF THOSE CASES.
UH, AND I'M GONNA READ YOU THE QUESTION.
UM, IT SAYS, AFTER POLICE ARREST AND HANDCUFF THE DRIVER OF A VEHICLE AND PLACE HIM IN A PATROL CAR, THE OFFICERS MAY, AND IF YOU COMPLETE THE QUESTION WITH THE KEY TO ANSWER, THE OFFICERS MAY NOT CONDUCT A SEARCH INTENT TO ARREST.
THAT SOUNDS LIKE A FINAL COMPLETE STATEMENT.
YOU CAN'T DO IT AS STATED, THAT'S INCORRECT.
IF YOU READ THAT QUESTION AS A TRUE OR FALSE QUESTION, IT'S ABSOLUTELY WRONG.
AND MY COLLEAGUES WILL COME UP HERE AND SHOW YOU PLACES IN THE BOOK WHERE IT APPEARS TO BE RIGHT, BUT THEN THE COURT WILL CLARIFY AND WE'LL SHOW YOU WHAT THOSE EXCEPTIONS ARE.
SO SEARCH INTENT TO ARREST OF A VEHICLE OR ACTUALLY ENTIRELY IS, CAN BE BASED ON TWO PREMISES OFFICER SAFETY.
AND TYPICALLY FOR MOST SCENARIOS, IT HAS BEEN, UH, TO PREVENT THE SUSPECT FROM DESTROYING EVIDENCE.
AND WHAT THE COURT HAS SAID ON ARIZONA VERSUS GI, UM, IS THAT THERE'S CIRCUMSTANCES UNIQUE TO THE CONTEXT OF A VEHICLE THAT CAN SU JUSTIFY CER BASICALLY SECURING THAT EVIDENCE FOR THE TRIAL.
AND YOU CAN EVEN SEE THAT, UH, THE VERY LAST SENTENCE ON THAT PAGE, UM, WHERE IT SAYS THE GOVERNMENT MAY SEARCH A VEHICLE INCIDENT TO ARREST AFTER THE SUSPECT HAS BEEN SECURED, WHEN IT IS REASONABLE TO BELIEVE THAT EVIDENCE RELATED TO THE CRIME OF ARREST MAY BE FOUND.
SO THE QUESTION ITSELF DOESN'T TELL ME WHAT THE CRIME OF ARREST IS, IT LEADS IT OPEN TO SUBJECTIVITY, AND I'M HAVING TO GUESS WHAT THE TEST MAKER'S THINKING, BUT EVEN AS SUCH, IF YOU READ THAT SENTENCE, UM, AS A SENTENCE IN COMPLETE A, IT'S INCORRECT.
IF WE READ B AS A COMPLETE SENTENCE, IT READS LIKE THIS, AFTER THE POLICE ARREST AND HANDCUFF THE DRIVER OF A VEHICLE AND PLACE HIM IN A PATROL CAR, THE OFFICERS MAY CONDUCT A SEARCH INCIDENT TO ARREST OF ONLY THE VEHICLE'S PASSENGER COMPARTMENT.
[00:35:02]
THAT SOUNDS MORE LIKE A DISCUSSION OF WHERE THEY CAN SEARCH, NOT IF.AND IF YOU LOOK AT PAGE 2 0 5, WHICH IS THE VERY NEXT CASE, THE WHOLE CONTEXT OF THAT CASE IS WHERE YOU CAN SEARCH AND IT SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT YOU CAN, UH, IT SAYS ONCE A LAWFUL ARREST OF AN OCCUPANT OF AN AUTOMOBILE MA IS MADE THE OFFICER AND THE OFFICER REASONABLY BELIEVES HE MAY FIND MORE EVIDENCE OF THE CRIME IN THE VEHICLE.
THE OFFICER MAY EXAMINE THE CONTENTS OF ANY CONTAINER FOUND WITHIN THE VEHICLE.
SO THEY WEREN'T EVEN ARGUING WHETHER IT WAS LIMITED TO THE, TO THE, UH, PASSENGER COMPARTMENT.
ALTHOUGH IT STATES THAT IN THIS PAGE THEY'RE SAYING NOT ONLY CAN YOU SEARCH THE VEHICLE, YOU CAN SEARCH CONTAINERS IN THE VEHICLE.
ALL THAT TO SAY THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN GET THERE IF YOU READ THE KEY TO ANSWER IS CORRECT.
UH, MAY I ASK ABSOLUTELY, SIR.
OKAY, THE OTHER CHOICES, WHICH ONE DO YOU THINK OF THOSE WOULD BE GOOD IF YOU READ B AS AFTER THE POLICE ARREST AND HANDCUFF THE DRIVER OF A VEHICLE AND PLACE HIM IN A PATROL CAR, THE OFFICERS MAY CONDUCT A SEARCH INCIDENT TO ARREST OF ONLY THE VEHICLE'S PASSENGER COMPARTMENT.
IS THAT TRUE THAT OR FALSE? THAT IS TRUE.
ONLY YOU CAN ONLY ONLY, AND I I'LL SHOW YOU WHERE IT SAYS THAT, UM, ON PAY ON UNDER BELTON, UM, IT IT, IT TALKS ABOUT WHETHER THE SCOPE OF THE SEARCH INCIDENT OR ARREST INCLUDES A CA CONTAINERS LOCATED IN THE PASSENGER COMPARTMENT OF THE VEHICLE.
AND THEN THEY GO TO DESCRIBE THAT BASICALLY SEARCH INCIDENTS OR ARREST IS ANYWHERE THE BAD GUY CAN REACH MOST.
USUALLY THEY SAY THE BODY AND THE PLACE OF THE BA OF THE PERSON, BUT WHICH COULD BE EXPANDED THEN BEYOND THE COMPARTMENT.
RIGHT? IT REASONABLY, BASED ON WHAT YOU'D SAID, HOW WELL YOU SAID, IF IT'S REASONABLE TO CONCLUDE, THEN SEARCH IT, IT HAS CONCLUDED THAT THE ENTIRE PASSENGER COMPARTMENT IS WITHIN REACH.
THERE IS NO NO, NO ADDITIONAL PLACE TO SEARCH IN THE VEHICLE.
SO YOU THINK B IS THE BEST ANSWER? I DO, SIR.
WHAT ABOUT C? C IS NOT BECAUSE THEY, THEY DON'T ALLOW YOU TO GET IN INTO THE TRUNK UNDER THESE CASES.
OKAY, LOOK ON PAGE ON THE ARIZONA V GRANT PAGE, JUST JUST OUTTA CURIOSITY.
CAN YOU READ IT SAYS HERE, UM, UM, ONCE THE DEFENDANT IS SECURED AND LOCKED, IT COULD REASONABLY FOUND IN THE VEHICLE, NONE OF THE EXCEPTIONS JUSTIFY A SEARCH INCIDENT TO THE ARREST.
I'M TRYING TO FIND YOUR SPOT, SIR.
IT'S ABOUT THE EIGHTH LINE DOWN, 10TH LINE DOWN.
MAYBE IT SAYS IT STARTS OUT WHERE, WHEN DO YOU SEE THE WORD? WHEN, WHEN THE DEFENDANT IS SECURED, YOU'RE UNDER GANTT, ARIZONA VERSUS GANTT.
AND IT SAYS WHEN THE DEFENDANT IS SECURED AND LOCKED IN A VEHICLE AND THE CRIME OF ARREST IS DRIVING ON A SUSPENDED LICENSE, THIS TEST QUESTION DOESN'T HAVE THAT OFFENSE STATED.
BUT THIS IS FOR WHICH NO EVIDENCE COULD REASONABLY FOUND IN THE VEHICLE.
NONE OF THE EXCEPTIONS JUSTIFY ANY, BECAUSE IF THE OFFENSE IS DRIVING UNDER A SUSPENDED LICENSE, I CAN'T EXPECT TO FIND ANY EVIDENCE OF DRIVING ON A SUSPENDED LICENSE IN THE CAR.
IT'S SPECIFICALLY TO, THIS IS SPECIFIC TO THAT OFFENSE.
UH, IT'S BECAUSE, AND IF YOU LOOK AT BELTON, IT'S GONNA BE THE SAME KIND OF THING DEALING WITH A PERSON WHO WAS SPEEDING.
AND AGAIN, THE COURT SAID IT'S NOT REASONABLE TO THINK THERE'S EVIDENCE IN THE CAR SPEEDING.
SO WHY WOULD YOU THINK YOU COULD SEARCH THE CAR FOR EVIDENCE OF SPEEDING? SO YOU'LL FIND SIMILAR LANGUAGES IN IN BELTON.
WHEN YOU'RE TAKING THE TEST, IS IT IS, IS IT, DOES IT HAVE THE PAGE NUMBER EXACTLY THE WAY IT'S ON HERE? IT DOES.
BUT THE CIVIL SERVICE RULES SAY THAT WE CAN'T USE THE PAGE NUMBER TO CONTEST ITS QUESTION.
AND IF WE CAN'T USE IT TO CONTEST IT, THEN WE CAN'T HAVE A DOUBLE STANDARD AND SAY THAT YOU, YOU USE IT TO ENFORCE IT.
IT'S SIMPLY THERE TO GUIDE US TO FIND WHERE THEY FOUND, WHERE THEY BASE THEIR ANSWER.
UM, IF, IF YOU WERE TO SAY YOU CAN'T USE IT TO APPEAL A QUESTION, BUT WE'RE GONNA USE IT TO SAY THIS IS TRUE BECAUSE WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS SPECIFIC PAGE, THAT WOULD BE AN UNFAIR STANDARD.
[00:40:04]
ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FROM THE COMMISSIONERS? THANK YOU.I WOULD LIKE TO COME BACK AFTER THIS AND IF, AND REBUT IF MY CO AFTER MY COLLEAGUES ELOQUENTLY SPEAK.
UM, BUT UM, I HOPE THAT YOU'LL CONSIDER THIS AND UH, IF YOU JUST READ THESE, EACH, EACH OF THESE IS TRUE FALSE STATEMENTS, ONLY ONE CAN BE TRUE.
ALRIGHT, MY POINTS REGARDING THIS QUESTION, WHY I THINK THE CORRECT ANSWER IS THE ONE THAT IS CODED AS CORRECT, VERY SIMILAR TO MY LAST ARGUMENTS THAT YOU CAN'T ADD OR TAKE AWAY FROM A QUESTION.
MY TRAINING IN LAW, THEY STRESS, IT'S ACTUALLY, IT'S KIND OF SILLY.
IT'S CALLED THE CINDERELLA RULE OF THE STEPSISTERS GET MAD BECAUSE THEY THINK THE STEPMOM HAS SAID CINDERELLA CAN GO TO THE BALL.
AND THE STEPMOTHER SAYS, I DIDN'T SAY YES.
I SAID IF, BECAUSE SHE'S PUT A BUNCH OF CONDITIONS, IF IS THE MOST IMPORTANT WORD IN ALL LAW AND STATUTE, IT'S INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.
AND IT'S NOT HERE HAD THE QUESTION SAID, WHEN THE SUSPECT IS SECURED, CAN YOU SEARCH FOR EVIDENCE IF YOU BELIEVE THERE IS EVIDENCE OF THE CRIME? IF I WERE ALLOWED TO ADD THE WORD IF AND ANOTHER SENTENCE TO EVERY QUESTION IN THIS TEST, I COULD APPEAL EVERYTHING BECAUSE EVERY QUESTION COULD BE MADE CORRECT? IF I WERE ALLOWED TO ADD THE WORD IF AND ANOTHER SENTENCE, WE'VE GOT TO GO WITH WHAT WE HAVE WRITTEN.
AND WHAT IT WRITES IS MENTIONS NOTHING ABOUT YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE FOUND IN THE VEHICLE.
IT JUST SAYS THAT YOU HAVE THE SUBJECT SECURED IN THE BACK OF A SQUAD CAR, WHICH GANTT IS SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING.
IT DOES MENTION THAT YOU COULD STILL SEARCH IF YOU THOUGHT THERE WERE, THERE WAS A CHANCE OF EVIDENCE.
BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE ACTUAL WORDS IN, YOU KNOW, I GUESS IT'S GOING TO BE PAGE SORRY, 2 0 4, READING THROUGH THE CASE UNDER THEIR DISCUSSION WHERE THE COURT'S DECISION IS SUMMARIZED, IT SAYS CLEARLY SUCH SEARCHES ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL WHEN THE SUSPECT CAN NO LONGER ACCESS THE VEHICLE.
YOU GO DOWN A WAYS AND IT STILL TALKS ABOUT IF THE SUSPECT IS SECURED, HE CAN NO LONGER ACCESS WEAPONS OR EVIDENCE CONTAINED IN THE VEHICLE.
THE COURT FURTHER CLAIMED THAT CIRCUMSTANCES UNIQUE TO THE VEHICLE CONTEXT JUSTIFY A SEARCH TO ARREST WHEN IT IS REASONABLE TO BELIEVE THAT EVIDENCE OF THE CRIME OF ARREST MAY BE FOUND THAT IS IN THERE, BUT IT WOULD REQUIRE AN IF.
AND THEN WHEN WE LOOK AT THE OTHER CHOICES, EVEN IF IT DID CONTAIN THAT YOU HAVE EXCEPTIONS TO THE REASONABLE EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY IN A VEHICLE WHERE IT WOULDN'T ACTUALLY BE A SEARCH INCIDENT TO ARREST.
IF I BELIEVE THERE'S EVIDENCE OF A CRIME IN IT, THAT'S JUST A PROBABLE CAUSE SEARCH OF A VEHICLE AND IT WOULD EXTEND TO THE ENTIRE VEHICLE, NOT JUST THE PASSENGER COMPARTMENT SEARCH INCIDENT TO ARREST IS JUST ONE COMPONENT OF LIKE, YOU KNOW, LIEUTENANT CUMMINGS SAID THERE'S 400 CASES IN HERE, THEY ALL GO TOGETHER IN DIFFERENT ELEMENTS WHEN TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT A SEARCH INCIDENT TO LAWFUL ARREST AND THE PERSON IS SECURED AND HE'S NO LONGER IN THAT AREA, YOU HAVE LOST THE RIGHT TO SEARCH.
IT EVEN SAYS HERE, IT WOULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL WHEN THE SUSPECT CAN NO LONGER ACCESS THE VEHICLE.
THAT'S A DEFINITIVE, NO, YOU CAN'T DO IT.
THE ONLY WAY TO GET TO THE, TO ANY OTHER ANSWER BESIDES THAT YOU CAN'T DO IT IS TO ADD THE WORD IF AND OTHER WORDS, WE CAN'T DO THAT.
WERE YOU ALL TO CONSIDER THAT POSSIBILITY AND SAY, WELL, WE CAN'T RULE IT OUT.
LET'S ASSUME THERE IS EVIDENCE.
IF THERE IS, THEN IT WOULD BE THE ENTIRE CAR, NOT THE PASSENGER COMPARTMENT.
HENCE THE WORDS PASSENGER COMPARTMENT AREN'T PART OF THE GANTT CASE.
IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE VEHICLE IN GENERAL.
BUT THE MAJOR POINT HERE IS THAT WITH WHAT IS ASKED AND WHAT IS ON THE PAGE, IT CAN'T GET MUCH MORE CLEAR THAN SUCH SEARCHES ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL WHEN THE SUSPECT CAN NO LONGER ACCESS THE VEHICLE.
SO IN THE CASE NEW YORK VERSUS BELTON MM-HMM
YOU HAVE THE BOOK THERE, RIGHT? YES.
IT SAYS, UH, IN THE PARAGRAPH ARTICLES INSIDE, DO YOU SEE THAT PARAGRAPH?
[00:45:01]
YES.IN THE LAST PART WHERE THE IF OCCURS, COULD YOU READ THAT ONE THAT THE REST OF THAT SENTENCE? IF THE WHAT? THE LAST PART OF WHICH, I'M SORRY, WHICH SENTENCE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I'M NOT SEEING WHERE THE ARRESTED HAS ACCESS TO ITS CONTENT.
DO YOU SEE THAT? UM, LET'S SEE, ARE WE TALKING IN BELTON OR WE'RE TALKING IN GANTT, NEW YORK VERSUS BELTON.
I'VE GOT ARTICLES INSIDE THE NARROW VIEW AT THE VERY END OF THAT, INTO WHICH PARAGRAPH? IT'S KIND OF SAYS IF THE ARRESTEE HAS, DO YOU SEE THAT PART? SEE IF THE PASSENGER COMPARTMENT IS IN REACH.
I'M TRYING TO FIND IF THE NO, IT SAYS PASSENGER.
AFTER THE ER COMPARTMENT OF THE AUTO WHEEL.
IF THE ARRESTEE HAS WHAT ACCESS TO ITS CONTENTS AND WHEN A PERSON IS HANDCUFFED, WOULD THEY BE CONSIDERED HAVING ACCESS? NO, THAT'S WHY I'M ARGUING THAT THEY WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO NOTHING AND IT, IT GETS A LITTLE TIED TOGETHER AND CONFUSING IN LAW ENFORCEMENT BECAUSE YOU ALWAYS HAVE A PROBABLE CAUSE SEARCH THAT'S SUPPORTED BY OTHERS.
SO THE QUESTION SAYS THEN IN THEY HAVE HANDCUFFED THE DRIVER MM-HMM
OF THE VEHICLE AND PLACED HIM IN THE PATROL CAR.
SO THEY WOULDN'T HAVE ACCESS THEN? NO, THAT'S WHY I'M SAYING IT.
THE ANSWER HERE IS UNDER GAD, WHICH THE QUESTION ONLY REFERRED TO GAD.
SUCH SEARCHES ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
THERE'S NO CLEARER NO THAN THOSE ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
THAT DOESN'T JUST SAY OFFICERS CAN'T, THAT SAYS IT'S A VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION.
THAT'S WHY I WOULD SAY THE ANSWER IS NO, NOT AS PART OF SEARCH UNTIL LAWFUL ARREST.
COULD THERE BE OTHER IFS THAT WOULD ALLOW US IN THE CAR? ABSOLUTELY.
A REGULAR PROBABLE CAUSE SEARCH WOULD GIVE US ACCESS TO THE WHOLE CAR.
AN INVENTORY PRIOR TO SEARCH SEARCH, UH, PRIOR TO IMPOUNDING WOULD GIVE US ACCESS TO SEARCH CAR.
THERE'S, I'M NOT SAYING YOU COULD NEVER SEARCH IT, BUT YOU COULDN'T DO AN INCIDENT TO LAWFUL ARREST IN THIS SITUATION.
AND EVEN IF WE WERE TO ADD THE, IF THAT ISN'T THERE, THAT WOULD APPLY TO THE WHOLE CAR AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES BE THE PASSENGER COMPARTMENT THE RIGHT ANSWER IN MY ARGUMENT.
THIS IS, THIS IS JUST A BLOW UP OF THE PAGE THAT Y'ALL ALREADY HAVE.
CAN YOU RESTATE YOUR NAME PLEASE? IT IS CHRIS TRUSTEE.
BUT THIS IS, UH, THE, THE PAGE THAT Y'ALL HAVE, 2 0 4, THE GANTT CASE, AND YOU CAN SEE ON THERE THAT I'VE UNDERLINED AND READ MM-HMM
ALL THE SECTIONS THAT I BELIEVE SUPPORT KEEPING THE ANSWER THE SAME.
UM, THIS ISN'T A TRUE FALSE QUESTION
SO, AND, AND THIS BOOK IS UNIQUE BECAUSE IT'S, IT'S A CASE LAW BOOK AS, AS THE OTHER OTHERS HAVE SAID, BUT IT'S UNIQUE IN THAT EACH PAGE IS A CASE THAT IS UNTO ITSELF.
UH, AND GANTT ACTUALLY THE, THE, THE CASES THAT GARY WAS, UH, REFERRING TO, GANTT ACTUALLY OVERRODE THOSE CASES.
UH, Y'ALL ARE TALKING ABOUT BELTON.
BELTON WAS A CASE THAT WAS OUT OF 1981.
GANTT, GANTT WAS A VERY IMPORTANT CASE THAT CAME OUT IN 2009, AND IT, IT FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED WHAT POLICE OFFICERS CAN DO ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS WHEN, WHEN THEY'RE ARRESTING PEOPLE OUT OF THE CAR.
SO I BELIEVE, AS I'VE ALREADY SAID, THAT, UH, THE QUESTION I BELIEVE SHOULD STAY THE SAME.
AND, UM, I BELIEVE THE QUESTION CAME DIRECTLY FROM THE PAGE 2 0 4.
YOU CAN SEE UNDER ISSUE WHETHER THE GOVERNMENT MAY AUTOMATICALLY SEARCH A VEHICLE INCIDENT TO ARREST WHEN THE ARRESTEE HAS BEEN SECURED AND NO LONGER HAS ACCESS TO WEAPONS OR EVIDENCE.
THEIR ANSWER IS NO PERIOD THERE WITH JUST THE INFORMATION THAT WAS PROVIDED IN THE QUESTION, WHICH MATCHES THAT STATEMENT THAT THEY JUST SAID FROM THE SUPREME COURT CASE.
NO, YOU CANNOT SEARCH AGAIN AS, UH, UM, MR. GREEN MENTIONED FURTHER DOWN AND, AND YOU SEE IT, UH, UNDERLINED ON MY PAGE.
IT SAYS SUCH SEARCHES ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
SO TO SAY IF IT, WITH JUST THE INFORMATION THAT WE'RE PROVIDED IN THE FOUR CORNERS OF THIS QUESTION, IF WE WAS TO SAY THAT ANSWERS B OR C ARE CORRECT WITH ONLY THE FACTS, ONLY THE DETAILS PROVIDED IN THE QUESTION, WE'RE COMMITTING AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL SEARCH.
THIS WAS A VERY GOOD QUESTION.
I BELIEVE THE TEST TEST WRITER GOT IT RIGHT.
YOU CAN'T REFERENCE OTHER QUESTION, UH, OTHER PAGES OUTTA THIS BOOK.
IT WAS, WHEN I READ THIS CASE, IT WAS CLEARLY REFERENCING GANTT AND I KNEW EXACTLY WHAT, WHAT IT WAS ASKING.
I AM TRYING TO SEE IF THERE'S ANY OTHER POINTS THAT, UH,
[00:50:01]
UH, YOU KNOW, I I HAD A STORY THAT, THAT I THINK THAT, UH, WOULD, WOULD HELP YOU UNDERSTAND HOW WE DEAL WITH THIS ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS.SO IF AN OFFICER CALLS ME ON THE STREET AND HE SAYS, SIR, I'VE STOPPED THE CAR, I'VE ARRESTED THE DRIVER, I'VE HANDCUFFED HIM, AND I'VE PUT HIM IN THE BACKSEAT OF MY SQUAD, CAN I SEARCH THE CAR? MY ONLY ANSWER WOULD HAVE TO BE WITH JUST THE FACTS AND THE DETAILS THAT YOU'VE PROVIDED ME.
IN ORDER TO GET ANY OTHER ANSWER OFF THE TEST QUESTION B OR C, YOU HAVE TO ADD MORE INFORMATION TO THE QUESTION THAT'S NOT THERE.
AGAIN, THANK Y'ALL SO MUCH FOR Y'ALL'S TIME TODAY.
IF Y'ALL HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, I'D BE HAPPY TO ANSWER NO QUESTIONS, NO QUESTIONS.
WISH I'D LIKE ME TO LEAVE THIS OVER.
I APPRECIATE YOUR PATIENCE WITH ME.
UM, I I WANNA MAKE SURE THAT I CLEARLY CONVEY BOTH, UH, MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE TEXT AND, AND I'M NOT HERE TO WASTE YOUR TIME.
I, THERE ARE UNFORTUNATELY FOR ME SEVERAL QUESTIONS THAT I MISSED.
UM, THAT, AND, AND, AND MOST OF 'EM, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BOOK, YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE AND IT PASSES THE OPEN BOOK TEST.
UH, WHAT MY COLLEAGUE POINTED OUT TO YOU WHEN HE SAID THE ISSUE STATED IN THIS CASE, AND DOCTOR TO POINT TO YOU, UM, THERE'S A KEY WORD IN HERE AUTOMATICALLY.
THIS SAYS WHETHER THE GOVERNMENT MAY AUTOMATICALLY SEARCH INCIDENT TO ARREST.
WHERE, WHERE IS THAT PLEASE? THAT IS ON GANTT ON PAGE 2 0 4.
AND, UM, IT, THEY LIST THE FACTS AND THEN THEY HAVE THE ISSUE AND THEN THEY HAVE WHAT'S HELD.
THIS QUESTION DOESN'T INCLUDE THE WORD AUTOMATICALLY OR I WOULD'VE AGREED THAT THE KEY TO ANSWER'S CORRECT.
IT SAYS, CAN THEY DO IT, YES OR NO? I CAN'T AUTOMATICALLY DO IT, BUT I CAN DO IT AND I CAN DO IT AND I CAN BASE MY DECISION ON THE TEXT, WHICH IS WHAT I'M REQUIRED TO DO.
OFFICER, WHEN YOU SAID YES SIR, ME AUTOMATICALLY THAT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, ARIZONA V GANT YES, SIR.
IS UNDER THE ISSUE, RIGHT? THIS IS WHAT HE JUST QUOTED TO YOU.
BUT, BUT IT SAYS IT'S UNDER ISSUE, RIGHT? IT DOES.
SO THIS IS WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT AND DOESN'T REALLY HAVE ANY EFFECT.
UH, JUST TALKS ABOUT THE LEARNING PROCESS HERE, OKAY.
SO WITH THE WORD AUTOMATICALLY DOESN'T REALLY COME RELEVANT TO THAT PARTICULAR QUESTION, IT JUST TELLS YOU HOW THERE TO ADDRESS IT REGARDING THAT, RIGHT? SO, SO THE CASE IS BASED ON WHEN YOU CAN MM-HMM
SEARCH, RIGHT? UH, I I THINK I, I SEE IT DIFFERENTLY.
I SEE IT AS THEY'RE SAYING, CAN YOU AUTOMATICALLY SEARCH A CAR? NO, IT, IT'S ALL GONNA HINGE ON THE CHARGE.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE VERY LAST SENTENCE HERE, I MEAN, I, I KNOW THAT THEY, THEY GET HUNG UP ON THE CONSTITUTIONAL, UH, ISSUE BECAUSE BASED ON ALL PRIOR PRECEDENTS, YOU COULD NOT USE, UH, EVIDENTIARY AND SAFETY AS YOUR RATIONALE FOR THIS CASE FOR DRIVING WHILE LICENSE SUSPENDED.
HOWEVER, THE COURT FURTHER CLARIFIED AND IT, THAT'S, I'M, THAT'S A QUOTE FROM THE BOOK, UM, THAT CIRCUMSTANCES UNIQUE TO THE VEHICLE CONTEXT JUSTIFY A SEARCH INCIDENT OR ARREST, NOT A PC SEARCH, LIKE HE WENT DOWN THE RABBIT TRAIL ON, OR, UH, INVENTORY SEARCH.
WE'RE TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WHAT'S IN THE QUESTION.
AND THAT'S A SEARCH INCIDENT OR ARREST.
IT SAYS HERE, I MEAN, IF YOU JUST STOP THERE, YOU'RE GONNA SAY THAT CIRCUMSTANCES DO, IN SOME CASES JUSTIFY IT.
IF THEY DO IN ANY, THEN YOU CAN'T SAY ACROSS THE BOARD THAT IT CAN'T BE DONE.
CAN I ASK YOU AN UNDER HELD, WHAT'S THE FIRST WORD? DOES IT SAY FOR AUTOMATICALLY UNDERNEATH THE CASE? ARIZONA VERSUS, AND YES, BUT IF YOU'RE GONNA, IF YOU'RE GONNA, I'M JUST ASKING WHAT THAT WORD IS, IT SAYS NO, THEY CAN AUTOMATICALLY SEARCH.
SO IN THE LEARNING PROCESS, IF IT SAYS NO, NO IS NO, CAN I AUTOMATICALLY DO IT? NO.
I MEAN, WE, WE EITHER READ THAT QUESTION OR WE DON'T.
I MEAN, IF, IF THE BOOK SAYS NO AND IT'S A, A STUDENT'S LEARNING AND IT SAYS NO, THEN THAT MEANS NO.
AND LIKE, SO WHEN WE READ DOWN HERE AND IT SAYS, HOWEVER, DO WE STOP READING THERE? UM, WHERE, WHERE ARE YOU REFERRING THERE? I APOLOGIZE, SIR.
UM, AT THE VERY LAST SENTENCE IN THE BOOK.
HOWEVER, THE GOVERNMENT, YOU MEAN MAY SEARCH A VEHICLE INCIDENT TO ARREST AFTER THE ARRESTEE HAS BEEN SECURED WHEN,
[00:55:01]
BUT THAT'S ADDITIONAL INFORMATION.IT ONLY ASKS YOU ABOUT THIS QUESTION AND THE SITUATION.
I, I IMAGINE THEY COULD HAVE GIVEN YOU A DIFFERENT SITUATION, BUT THEY PICK, YOU KNOW, JUST, THEY JUST SAY PURELY HANDCUFFED HIM.
SO THERE'S A, THERE'S AN ELEVATOR FOR THIS BUILDING AND THERE'S A PASS CARD ON IT, BUT THAT'S THAT OTHER STUFF ADDED TO IT.
THE QUESTION, I'M JUST TRYING TO GIVE YOU A, AN ANALOGY THAT WOULD HELP YOU SEE WHERE MY BRAIN GOES, WHETHER I'M RIGHT OR WRONG.
UM, IF YOU SAID, UM, OFFICERS CAN'T GO UP THE ELEVATOR UNLESS THEY USE THEIR PASS CARD, IT WOULD NOT BE AN ACCURATE STATEMENT TO SAY OFFICERS CANNOT USE THE PASS THE ELEVATOR, CORRECT? OR NO? I, I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE ANALOGY WOULD BE.
I I WOULD BE YES OR NO, BUT IT'S NOT THE QUESTION WE'RE DEALING WITH.
SO TAKING THAT, THAT LOGIC THOUGH, TO THE QUESTION, IF YOU SAY, OFFICERS CAN'T SEARCH AND SEND IT TO ARREST UNLESS, AND IT DOES SAY THAT ACTUALLY ON PAGE 2 0 6, UM, IT, IT, IT TALKS MORE ABOUT THIS CASE, UM, AND IT SAYS THAT, UM, A THE MAJORITY OF GANTT CLARIFIED THAT BELT AND DOES NOT AUTHORIZE A VEHICLE SEARCH AND SEND TO ARREST, UH, I'M SORRY, INCIDENT, SEARCH INCIDENT TO A RECENT OCCUPANTS ARREST OF THE, AFTER THE ARREST.
HE HAS BEEN SECURED AND CANNOT ACCESS IN THE INTERIOR OF THE VEHICLE, UNLESS DUE TO THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNIQUE TO THE AUTOMOBILE CONTEXT, IT IS REASONABLE TO BELIEVE EVIDENCE OF THE OFFENSE MIGHT BE FOUND.
SO THIS ALL HINGES ON THE OFFENSE.
WHAT IS THE OFFENSIVE ARREST? AND WE'RE WE'RE BEING PLACED IN A POSITION TO MAKE A, UM, SUBJECTIVE CONCLUSION AS TO WHAT THE TEST MAKER'S THINKING, NOT WHAT THE BOOK SAYS.
WHICH DO YOU THINK, DO YOU THINK IS THE BEST ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION? YOU SAID BI BELIEVE THAT B IS THE CORRECT ANSWER.
AND WHAT I'M ASKING, AND AND CLEARLY IF YOU DON'T, UH, AGREE WITH ME, I, I RESPECT YOUR OPINIONS AND, AND I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND PATIENCE WITH ME TODAY, UH, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS.
UM, BUT WHAT I WOULD ASK IS THAT YOU ALLOW ME THE SAME SUBJECTIVITY FOR B, THAT YOU'RE GONNA ALLOW FOR A, BECAUSE YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO ALLOW SUBJECTIVITY BECAUSE IT SPECIFICALLY MAKES A ABSOLUTE STATEMENT.
YOU CANNOT DO A SEARCH ENGINE TO ARREST WHEN IN FACT THAT'S NOT CORRECT.
AND I APPRECIATE Y'ALL'S TIME AND I'LL, I WILL THANK YOU'ALL YIELD THE FLOOR.
AM I ALLOWED TO COME BACK UP? I DUNNO IF WE NEED ANY TIME THAT, THAT'S FINE.
IS THERE NEED, I'M SORRY, I, I'M NOT SURE IF I, IF I NEED TO OR NOT, BUT JUST TO MAKE SURE AND JUST STATE YOUR NAME AGAIN.
UM, IT'S CHRIS TRUSTEE AND, UM, I'M SORRY, I JUST, I I DISAGREE WITH MY FRIEND GARY.
UH, I KNOW THAT, THAT THIS IS, I AS IMPORTANT TO HIM AS IT IS, IS TO ME.
UM, AND, UH, SO I UNDERSTAND WHY HE, UH, HE'S MAKING THE ARGUMENT, BUT I JUST, THIS, THIS QUESTION TO ME CLEARLY COMES OFF THE PAGE AND, AND TO GET ANSWER B OR C, YOU HAVE TO ADD INFORMATION TO THAT QUESTION.
UM, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THIS WAS A BAD QUESTION.
I BELIEVE THAT THE QUESTION WAS INTENTIONALLY WROTE THIS WAY BECAUSE WITH ONLY THOSE DETAILS YOU CAN'T SEARCH.
AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE KNOW THAT.
SO, UM, TO GET B OR C, AND AGAIN, IT DOESN'T EVEN MENTION PASSENGER COMPARTMENT ANYWHERE ON THIS PAGE.
UM, AND, AND WE'RE, WE'RE, THIS QUESTION IS TESTING OUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE GANTT CASE.
WE CAN'T, WE CAN'T REFERENCE OTHER CASES TO, TO COME TO OUR CONCLUSION.
AND, AND, AND YOU CAN SEE RIGHT THERE UNDER THE ISSUE AND THE NO PERIOD.
THE, THE WORD, UM, THE WORD, UM, YOU SAID PASSENGER COMPARTMENT, WHICH I BELIEVE HE'S REFERRING TO UHHUH.
AND THAT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CASE, A CASE THAT HE SAYS RELATIVE TO THIS.
BUT I JUST WANTED TO KNOW WHERE HE GOT THAT.
DO WE HAVE A MOTION? WELL, OR WOULD YOU LIKE TO DISCUSS
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OR COMMENT? I JUST THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT REFERENCE B, THAT IT TALKS ABOUT THE PASSION COMPARTMENT, BUT IT FURTHER SAYS AND THE IMMEDIATE SURROUNDING AREA, THEREFORE THAT WOULD BE AN INAPPROPRIATE ANSWER 'CAUSE IT DOESN'T INCLUDE THE OTHER PART.AND NUMBER TWO, I WOULD SAY IT SAYS CONDUCT A SEARCH INCIDENT TO ARREST OF THE ENTIRE VEHICLE.
AND AGAIN, ON THE BELTON CASE IT SAYS IMMEDIATE AND SURROUNDING AREAS AS WELL.
SO THAT WOULD INVALIDATE THAT ONE, NOT CONDUCT A VEHICLE SEARCH INCIDENT TO ARREST IS VERY CLEAR ON THAT.
SAME ON ON THE ARIZONA V GANTT CASE WHERE IT SAYS UNDER HELD NO, AND IT SAYS VERY SPECIFICALLY, NO EVIDENCE COULD REASONABLY FOUND IN THE VEHICLE, NONE OF THE EXCEPTIONS THAT JUSTIFY A SEARCH INCIDENT TO THE ARREST.
SO IT'S, IT'S UH, I MEAN IF YOU ADDED ALL THE OTHER STUFF AS MENTIONED, THEN MAYBE YOU COULD CHANGE THE ANSWER, BUT YOU, YOU CAN'T 'CAUSE IT'S NOT THERE.
SO I SAY THAT AND I WOULD MOVE THAT WE GO WITH THE CORRECT ANSWER IS GIVEN BY THE TEST MAKER.
SO WE VOTE IN FAVOR OF UPHOLDING THE EXAM QUESTION AND ANSWER AS ORIGINALLY SCORED.
AND I DO HAVE ONE FOLLOW UP QUESTION FOR THIS, FOR STAFF.
UM, SO THE WAY IT'S BEEN, IT WAS LAID OUT ON THIS, ON THIS, UM, SHEET OF PAPER.
WOULD ANOTHER OPTION JUST FOR FUTURE REFERENCE BE THAT WE VOTE TO THROW OUT THAT QUESTION AND COULD WE MAYBE ADD THAT LIKE FOR, FOR THE, FOR FUTURE APPEALS ON THE ACTUAL VOTING CHIEF, YOU MEAN UHHUH?
YOU WANT TO ADDRESS THAT OR, UH, YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU'RE ASKING ME FOR FUTURE? NOT WITH RESPECT TO THIS QUESTION.
SO THAT YOU UNDERSTAND IF, IF THERE'S A QUESTION THAT IS BY WAY OF EXAMPLE, UNINTELLIGIBLE BECAUSE OF TYPOGRAPHIC ERROR OR OTHERWISE, UM, THAT, THAT HAD NO APPROPRIATE ANSWER, YOU CAN ALSO VOTE TO REMOVE THAT QUESTION FROM THE, FROM THE EXAM.
BUT THIS QUESTION WON'T BE USED AGAIN ANYWAY.
WILL IT? YOU, YOU WON'T HAVE THE SAME QUESTION GIVEN TO THE NEXT GROUP.
SO YOU HAVE THE TEST REBUILT EVERY TIME, OTHERWISE PEOPLE WOULD JUST MEMORIZE THESE HEARINGS, RIGHT? YEAH.
MY, MY COMMENT WASN'T IN REFERENCE TO THIS QUESTION.
MY COMMENT WAS GENERALLY IF THERE'S A SCENARIO WHERE THE, BECAUSE IT, IT COULD HAPPEN TYPOGRAPHICALLY, IT COULD HAPPEN JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE'S MADE A MISTAKE AND THE ANSWER AND THE QUESTION ARE UNINTELLIGIBLE, THEN YOU CAN REMOVE THAT.
YOU CAN REMOVE THAT FROM, YOU CAN VOTE TO REMOVE THAT QUESTION FROM THE EXAM.
SO WOULD IT BE OKAY TO ADD THAT OPTION TO THESE SHEET? SURE.
SO GIVEN THE, UH, APPEALS AND THE WAY THAT WE VOTED, WE CAN CONSIDER APPROVING THE, THE CAPTAIN'S EXAMS. YES.
SO THAT WOULD BE, UM, ITEM NUMBER 10, WHICH IS TO CONSIDER APPROVAL OF THE ELIGIBILITY LIST FROM THE POLICE CAPTAIN PROMOTIONAL EXAMINATION CONDUCTED ON FEBRUARY THE 14TH, 2023.
AND I MOVE THAT WE APPROVE THE POLICE CAPTAIN EXAM FROM THE FEBRUARY 14TH SECOND.
UM, SO ALL THOSE IN FAVOR? AYE.
SO ITEM NUMBER 10 IS APPROVED, AND UH, ITEM NUMBER 11 IS TO CONSIDER THE ADOPTION OF AMENDMENTS TO LOCAL RULE.
UM, LR 1 43 0.003 OF THE CITY OF GARLAND, TEXAS FIREFIGHTERS AND POLICE OFFICERS, CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION, RULES AND REGULATIONS, INFORMATIONAL ITEMS, COMMISSIONERS, ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT? UH, THE PROPOSED CHANGE? NO.
AND JUST TO SUMMARIZE BRIEFLY, AND THIS IS TRUE FOR 11 AND 12, ALL WE'RE DOING THERE IS REMOVING THE 180 DAY SERVICE REQUIREMENT IN ORDER FOR, FOR A OFFICER TO GET A, THEIR VETERAN POINTS ON AN ENTRANCE EXAM RANKING.
IS THERE A, UM, A NEW NUMBER? IT IT, WHAT WE'RE, WHAT WE'VE DONE IS THE STATE, THE STATE STATUTE DOESN'T MAKE REFERENCE TO A TIME LIMITATION.
SO IF THEY'RE HONORABLY DISCHARGED AND THEY'VE SERVED IN
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THE MILITARY, THEY GET THE FIVE POINTS AND SO NOW WE'RE BRINGING IT BACK TO THAT LEVEL.SO THEORETICALLY, WOULD IT BE ACCURATE TO SAY IF SOMEONE IS HONORABLY DISCHARGED THAT THEY HAVE SERVED AT LEAST 180 DAYS? OR NOT NECESSARILY? NO, NOT NECESSARILY.
YOU CAN IMAGINE A SCENARIO WHERE, I MEAN THIS IS NOT, THIS IS NOT BEING INCIDENT DRIVEN.
THIS IS BEING, UM, THIS IS BEING JUST DRIVEN BY THE FACT THAT IT, THAT WE'RE COMFORTABLE WITH SAYING IF THEY RECEIVED AN HONORABLY DISCHARGE AND SERVED IN THE MILITARY, ONE OF THE ARMED SERVICES, WE'RE GONNA GIVE THEM THOSE FIVE POINTS.
TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION VERY SPECIFICALLY, IF A SOLDIER GOES INTO THE MILITARY, LET'S SAY BASIC TRAINING AND IS SHOT AND THEY'LL BE HONORABLY DISCHARGED, IT COULD BE HONORABLY DISCHARGED MEDICALLY AND OR FOR SOME OTHER REASON.
AND, AND, UH, HE WOULD NOT HAVE SERVED 180 DAYS.
ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS ON ITEM NUMBER 11? I MOVE THAT WE APPROVE THAT.
OKAY, SO ITEM NUMBER 11 IS APPROVED AND ITEM NUMBER 12 IS ALSO TO ADOPT CONSIDER ADOPTION OF AN AMENDMENT TO LOCAL RULE.
WE'VE REMOVED THE 180 DAY REQUIREMENT OUT OF THE DEFINITION OF VETERAN.
OKAY, I MOVE THAT WE APPROVE THAT.
OKAY, SO ITEM NUMBER 12 IS APPROVED AND UM, ITEM NUMBER 13 IS INFORMATIONAL ITEMS. UM, NOW I WON'T GO THROUGH THOSE, IT'S JUST A LIST OF THE UPCOMING EXAMS. SO WE HAVE ANOTHER POLICE ENTRANCE EXAM, JUST AS CHIEF RYAN MENTIONED, WE ARE TESTING MORE FREQUENTLY.
AND THEN WE HAVE FOUR FIRE PROMOTIONAL EXAMS THAT WILL BE COMING UP, UH, IN APRIL.
ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? SO LIKELY ANOTHER MEETING NECESSARY IN APRIL? YES.
AND WE UM, ALSO WILL COME BACK TO YOU AT THAT TIME.
UM, WE PREVIOUSLY HAD AMENDED THE LOCAL RULES TO ALLOW FOR THE LATERAL EXAMS. THAT PROVISION HAS SINCE EXPIRED.
SO WE'LL NEED TO BRING THAT TO YOU AGAIN SO WE CAN HAVE SOME ADDITIONAL LATERAL POLICE, UH, OFFICER EXAMS, UH, AS WELL TRY TO GET OUR NUMBERS UP.
WOULD THAT BE BEFORE APRIL? IT, UH, IT'S WHAT'S THE, IT'S UM, IT'S APRIL BECAUSE THE POLICE EXAM, THE LATERAL EXAM WILL BE AFTER THAT.
SO, UM, ONCE WE HAVE THESE TESTS TO GET THEM CERTIFIED, WE'LL BRING YOU BACK.
SO THEN, UM, THE NEXT ITEM IS TO ADJOURN.
SO I MOVE THAT WE ADJOURN THE MEETING.